And so it comes to pass. Today, The Daily Mail takes a very special spot on CVG's W.R.O.N.G hall of shame; one which commands awe and disbelief in equal measure.
You may have seen our report earlier concerning a new psychological study, in which boffins (love that word) from Huddersfield University struggled to find a link between violent video games and aggression in players.
The lack of aggression caused by the violent game was epitomised by the fact that the subjects actually became more frustrated and physically affected when playing a football title (PES) - for precisely the opposite reasons. The research concluded that players could relate sports to everyday real experiences, and so were more liable to become emotionally involved in proceedings.
If you can't be bothered to re-scan the whole article, here's the takeaway quote from Dr Simon Goodson, who headed up the study: "These findings suggest it cannot be automatically assumed that violent content leads directly to aggression, and that further research should attempted to uncover the aspects of video games which can lead to an aggressive response."
Fairly conclusive, yes? Not really two ways of looking at that, right?
W.R.O.N.G.
Or, more accurately, R.O.N.G. The Daily Mail's razor-sharp take on events certainly evidenced the Ridiculous Opinions Of Non-Gamers - but there was very little 'Witless' about it. It was far too idiosyncratically sneaky for that.
This was a master of its craft in full flow. The Daily Mail in all its 'read between the lines' glory. In a way, we're slightly journalistically jealous at both the surreptitious wordplay on show and the sheer gumption of the article.
It's kind of something to marvel at: A wink here, a nudge there... Middle England fnar-fnars into its All-Bran. Then stares petrified at its offspring.
Here, we take a special W.R.O.N.G look at the Mail's version of events piece-by-piece - and analyse exactly what's gone on.
No, for this mission, we need a very special guest commentator. Whose that now? Dr. Simon Goodson, the man who penned the report in the first place? Oh, go on then.
We just got off the blower with him. Had a nice chat all about his research and the Mail's coverage. He's a cool cat. Be welcoming.
First up, that headline:
Playing football games on computers 'makes you more aggressive'
CVG says: And we're off. The Mail has seemingly twisted a quote of Goodson's, originally intended to highlight his team's surprise conclusion - that, far from inspiring fury, violent video games can't even muster the kind of aggression brought on by a bit of FIFA. ("The player can identify with a real-life experience [like sport] and call up those emotions and aggression more easily than in a situation they would not have encountered.")
An unsurprising spin? Maybe. Except Goodson never suggests these games will make you more aggressive - just that they could do so more easily than "killing" in a game.
Dr. Goodson says: "They've put an angle on it where it says that sports games make people more aggressive. But the football game was more of a 'realistic stresser'; something that makes you stressed or emotional in real life that's mimicked in a video game. They've missed out a key phrase in that headline: '... than playing a violent video game'. If you put that in, it gives you some much-needed perspective."
Thank you, doctor. But spinning headlines ain't nothing new. Let's check in on the Mail's captions instead, which really bring the piece to life:
(Under a photo of a carjacker): 'Outbursts: Computer games have been linked to increases in violence and crime'
CVG: The very mention of van der Vils in the article is shudder-worthy. (The Mail fails to mention that he had previously been detained in a Dutch psychiatric institution.) But it's the word 'Trigger' that's our favourite aspect here. As in gun. But also as in sudden, inspirational influence. See what we mean? Not Witless. Crafty.
Of course, Dr. Goodson's team discovered the complete opposite. It's there, in that quote, right at the end of the article... What do you mean most people don't read to the end of the article?
Dr Goodson says: "Some reporters and psychologists try to infer gaming has a direct effect on the violent behaviour of a handful of people. Let's use the example of Peter Sutcliffe to show how such a simple behavioural link doesn't really work. He reportedly looked at a gravestone in Bradford, and that was cited as inspiration to turn him into a serial killer. So on that logic, should we all shield our eyes from gravestones?
"There are 200-plus million people playing games in the world - that's a conservative estimate. Perhaps six people this year will do something terrible who also play video games. The honest truth is that, like Pete Sutcliffe, there'll be something wrong with them before we even start looking at outside influences like games. There's no maths in the world that I know that will convert six into 200 million and come out with anything significant. So you have to look at the psychological research - and basically, we think our findings lay the argument to bed that violent video games make people aggressive."
Hallelujah, brother. Onto the Mail's first two paragraphs:
CVG says: Hmmm. It's our contention that people playing violent video games and simply not having an aggressive response is perhaps the bigger story - but each to their own (agenda).
While participants remain 'numb' when they see someone being 'killed' on screen, apparently harmless games that mirror real life can have a far greater effect.
CVG says: What a pretty little implication this is. "Numb." i.e. "Desensitised". i.e. "Unmoved by violence". i.e. "DANGER..."
If - and we're not for one minute saying this is true - but if the Mail's wish here was to insinuate that a non-aggressive response to Gears Of War 2 shows the creepy nature of gaming's erosion of our moral barometer, it doesn't fit. The participants were randomly selected. 40 men and women. Many of whom, no doubt, did not consider themselves 'gamers'. Unless Epic's title can instantly dampen our ability to feel!
We know now why you cry.
Dr. Goodson says: "We got the subjects to play Gears Of war 2 in a multiplayer Deathmatch for ten minutes, so when they died they regenerated. They all played it quite quietly. When they were playing the football game, however, we wanted to tell people to shut up and stop moving. They were calling each other all the names under the sun, they were swearing at the referee, just like they do in real life.
"But it's not right to say that the ones playing Gears Of War 2 were 'numb' at all - they weren't desensitised. It's not correct to think that. They were just playing the game. It's not the same when you play Pro Evo as when you play Gears Of War."
Don't you just want to shake this guy's hand?
Grand news, then: you'll be able to embrace him tomorrow, digitally, when we offer Dr. Goodson's full insight into the research his team have conducted, what it means for video games - and his opinion of how violent video games have been treated by the media and psychology academics up until now.
Until then, we'll leave you with a final, extensive quote from the man himself who, incidentally, was presenting at the British Psychological Society's annual conference in Glasgow just moments ago. This one's especially for you, Ms. Diamond:
"I hope the gaming community realises that this research is important. We're just trying to present what's actually [accurate] and give some clarity past these studies in America that have such a touch of bias.
"One of the studies was done in 2009 - Bushman & Anderson 'Comfortably Numb'. They used Doom on a test subject, which was obviously a game released in the mid-1990s. They got someone to play in it a lab, and they staged a fight outside. They concluded that because the participant didn't go and break the fight up while playing the game, violent video games therefore reduce social helping behaviour. I mean, seriously. The media will actually believe that - that's what you're up against.
"Our research was conducted with cutting edge equipment that is used to treat people in hospital with epilepsy and brain problems. When we're not finding anything at all [in terms of brain activity during playtime of violent games], that to me says this is a big deal.
"We're not funded by anybody. We've got our money from the university where we work. We haven't got an agenda. We set out with an exploratory hypotheses: What happens when people play violent video games vs racing games and sports games? We've got no axe to grind. We're not being funded by Microsoft or anybody like that. We just want the truth.
"Interestingly, we did an aggression test on all participants after the research, and they actually scored below what you'd expect normal people to get. They were between 70-75 on our scale, which is normal. An aggressive person would be above 80 or 85. I wouldn't say there is any concern that video games are causing people to be aggressive after they play them."
Worth reading one more time? Go on then.
"I wouldn't say there is any concern that video games are causing people to be aggressive after they play them."
Comments
65 comments so far...
PS360MAN on 4 May '11 said:
What a proper dude that bloke is. Looking forward to reading his other comments.
beemoh on 4 May '11 said:
See this, Daily Mail? See this?
*points at above CVG article*
JOURNALISM.
mogel94 on 4 May '11 said:
Man I love WRONG, keep up the good work
gmcb007 on 4 May '11 said:
Because its a proven fact that if you actually play football there is no aggression involved.
Bah The Daily Mail is just made for scaremongering and propaganda.
strickers on 4 May '11 said:
WRONG is the best reply to misleading,anti-videogame journalism that I've seen yet.
Keep up the good work.
That is all.
liquidsoap89 on 4 May '11 said:
See, I can't say anything negative about the artice... You guys were pretty honest, had some humor in what you were saying, got an actual person to give some words for you... But I still just can't get over the fact that you guys do the EXACT SAME THING you're criticizing others for! I can't even count the amount of times I've read some misleading title or description of an article just to be s**t on when I actually go and read the article.
And don't even get me started on the whole "bla bla bla preview, best game ever or worst? READ OUR THOUGHTS TO FIND OUT!" Only to have you say "Yea... So far it's looking pretty cool... We'll probably play it when it comes out..."
NorthyMark2 on 4 May '11 said:
I have to applaud the gentleman who did the research, as when challenged, he backed up everything he said in context. Such a shame that a national newspaper twists studies just to sell a few more copies or suit its audience.
Zepf on 4 May '11 said:
What a guy!
Well done CVG, great article!
runadumb on 4 May '11 said:
While this was an well put together W.R.O.N.G article I have too agree with Liquidsoap. CVG is the tabloid of the gaming world. I remember you done a hit piece on a gaming addiction program that you quote mined and took a lot out of context. You had the commentors up in arms but anyone that actually watched the show knew the BS you pulled. I hope too see less of that crap and more of this.
ipressbuttons on 4 May '11 said:
There are many studies which say they're are no links, they always get ignored though...
They'll say Osama played Gears of War next!
Sammy_bham on 4 May '11 said:
note the TRUE part. what part of the research, that they have conducted is actually giving a TRUE reflection? Gathering a group of people to play a game or two and measuring their responces will NEVER give a 100% true reflection on anyone or everyone across the globe. Never EVER.
in order for it to be TRUE, as in, actual FACTUAL information to support a claim, give to it a 100% reflection for everybody, you have to test everybody. then break it down into other sub catagories. for example, how each person has grown up, what type of life have they been brought into, are their family rich/poor. Does the person have any ailments or personal mental history, etc etc.. there could be up to 100,000 different things.
then and only then will there be a true reflection and a conclusive answer to the questions.
i dont mean to sound like im supporting or unsupporting anyone, but in the end everything else, is and will always be, speculation..... FACT.
in responce to the daily mail....
I could snap tomorrow, kill my family etc. They would then find some way of blaming portal 2 (lol) because i just so happened to have killed them while watching a barclays advert which is narrated by stephen merchant. Which in turn sparked up some anger reminding me how annoyed i am that i cant get the 70 seconds trophy.
Bin laden only helped execute 9/11 because he had been playing too much microsoft flight simulator the night before!!!
W.R.O.N.G
johnafirth on 4 May '11 said:
Proper science rather than biased drivel? Shome mishtake, shurely?
Godlike Ape on 4 May '11 said:
Keep up the good work, CVG. Another Daily Mail article for Dr. Goldacre, methinks.
BenThomasFoster on 4 May '11 said:
I've always said. Call of duty, halo, gears any "violent" video game makes me rage much less than sport games. MUCH MUCH less
iucidium on 4 May '11 said:
You do awesome pieces like this and then bring out flame-bait Apple articles.
Please don't turn into Engadget.
Please.
El Mag on 4 May '11 said:
You need to post this bit of bad news CVG. Mass Effect 3 has been delayed.
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/116/1166006p1.html
bristolranger on 4 May '11 said:
Why anyone reads a so called newspaper with headlines like "Britain goes Halal" ( really? must have missed that one) is beyond me. In this day & age it beggars belief that people do not question so called facts fed to us by these right wing, racist bullsh*tters.
Written by c***s, read by c***s !
In their own words "BAN THIS SICK FILTH"
MD1500 on 4 May '11 said:
I'm actually pleasantly surprised by the sane comments on the Daily Mail website.
Admittedly, there's a couple of "GAMES R EVUL!!!!11111" posts, but most see the article as the stupidity it is.
hi0marc on 4 May '11 said:
Right on! No surprise the mail stuck it's head in the WRONG gallows eventually
twistedfiend on 4 May '11 said:
I can play violent videogames for hours on end and enjoy them thouroughly, to the point where even getting wasted time and again (because, you know,I'm actually not that good) is actually fun - but without fail, every time I read the Daily Mail (I try not to make a habit of it) I get really, really p**sed off angry and want to hit stuff. conclusion: The Daily Mail makes people aggressive. And if you only include me it's a 100% success rate at getting an angry, violent reaction from reading the Daily Mail. The Government should do something about the Daily Mail before I go ape s**t and spray sub machine-gun fire at my local newsagent.
LordVonPS3 on 4 May '11 said:
Wait... Gears of bore a snooze fest? Surely not! Duck, stand, duck, stand, run, duck, cover, shoot... Rinse and repeat. My solemn fanboy apologies on hold with my Sunday best - you brought it up Tim. You wouldn't let it lie.
Whether a game depicts violence or not is moot IMO, that's not enough to incite violence or to even stir up a mood. I've literally fallen asleep playing GTA4, Halo ODST, Forza 3 and well, quite a few games this generation... Most girlfriends would watch you play one of these games for 5 minutes before saying "this is rubbish" and heading off down the shops.
FIFA (11 anyway) is genuinely frustrating because it was developed to be unplayable. You pick a direction, hit and hope it goes to your player - depending on whether the game - or the latest EA FIFA player stats - thinks your player is any good or not. That this is a genuine FEATURE of the latest game and is intended to make you feel like you're watching West Ham Vs West Brom. Yes, I've fallen asleep playing FIFA too.
Perhaps if these little monkeys knew anything about video games, how they were developed and what makes a game a game, then maybe they'd know what they were talking about and why gaming should be bracketed with movies then left the f**k alone. SNES Mario Kart 150cc / Star Cup in 1p had me swearing, gritting my teeth and throwing my SNES pad in frustration like a gremlin back in the day, yet I'm sure every mother in the country would try to have me believe that Mario is simply magical. I've never fallen asleep playing Mario Kart, even at 4 in the morning.
Games that are instantly playable, have instantly accessible controls, challenge you and frustrate you... That's what causes video game violence and quite frankly the only game to even come close to offering that kind of "just one more go" addiction this generation is GT5.
Imaduck on 4 May '11 said:
Well played CVG, and respect and thanks to the Doctor
. Basically - if you're going to report on something, get your f**king story straight and true! I mean, the press can say anything these days as fact, same with daytime TV.
The Daily Mail ..... duuughh....... .. we need some standards for journalism
adgr19 on 4 May '11 said:
good work cvg, i hope some other writers from other sites join your w.r.o.n.g. campaign soon.
is it me or does other media seem to be targeting gaming more so this year than ever? i wonder if they are blaming gaming for the slump in newspaper sales and viewing figures? Newspapers like the mail should realise they are pandering to a dying breed of angry readers and that new generations are far more inclined to question opinions and ignore the hate mongering bile the newspapers spew out so frequently?
Windowlicker79 on 4 May '11 said:
This is probably the most interesting, well written and well researched article I've ever read on CVG.
Sammy_bham on 4 May '11 said:
why El Mag.... why!!!!!
well thats me well and truly UPSET!
first bin laden... then this!
El Mag on 4 May '11 said:
I know it's terrible. I'm trying to sort out a way to freeze myself until early next year. I'm worried about the massive beard i'll wake up with though.
LordVonPS3 on 4 May '11 said:
Just think about all the fun you'll have adding a massive beard on Monsieur Shepard.
El Mag on 4 May '11 said:
That's another problem, all my end game Shepards are ladies. Although my renegade one does seem the type that would prefer having a beautiful thick beard to run her fingers through while being dastardly.
Joe90_Remy700 on 4 May '11 said:
very good, cvg
any way this bullsh!te that is spewed out of the national paper can be taken further? like, and of that papers rivals be up for putting the record straight, on our behalf? get them to print the ACTUAL FACTUAL quotes off the Doc and put the mail to shame. only ye have the power... our destiny is in your hands CVG
LiqzZ on 4 May '11 said:
Daily Mail are just one of many fueling the anti videogame bandwagon, and to be fair so are we. A group of gamers trying to prove that we don't get violent because of videogames just portrays us as "in denial" to the public. If non gamers saw a positive and truthful article about videogame violence from an established newspaper it might help douse the flames comming at us better than shouting WRONG at anyone who makes an uneducated comment about videogames and violence.
Not that i disagree with WRONG at all, as you're totally right and if it was my choice i would have articles like this in the daily mail x]
alan666 on 4 May '11 said:
who cares what the DM say
foxmcloud555 on 4 May '11 said:
The Daily Mail recently earned a particular place in my hatred.
They reported the death of a friend of mine with exactly the same spin if you can believe it.
He was on a skiing holiday, got drunk and tragically fell to his death.
He was 19 and had just got 4 A's at a-level, and the DM felt it more apropriate to comment on how much his parents earnt, how much his house was worth and what kind of people frequented his chosen destination.
All in all it was set out to make him sound a rich idiotic t**t who obviously deserved it.
He worked f*cking hard his entire short life, he didn't deserve what they did.
I would so dearly love for people to see what a worthless rag that paper is, and what they do to all of us every time they mention video games.
They fear-monger and it's not right.
darbo on 5 May '11 said:
None of this research is necessary any more, it is in fact ten years too late.
The real, truthful, inarguable reason for ALL video game violence is limited continues, I can happily play all the best shmups and bmups with little more than mild frustration when I die because I know i'll respawn and get the prick next time.
Compare that with super probotector on the snes, I downloaded onto the wii and damn near bit the controller in two... The cat still wont come near me. Old school games cause violence, not new.
Grapple on 5 May '11 said:
I heard this guy interviwed on the radio today and he was a really down to earth guy with no axe to grind either way. He said they started the study with a clean slate. Thats usually the best way do do science.
Sleepaphobic on 5 May '11 said:
Who cares? Most of you "gamers" are really freakin insecure.
roland82 on 5 May '11 said:
This Dr is a hero. I cant wait to hear so called 'experts' claim his research is nonsense and start dishing out the 'common sense view'.
I guess football holiganism was all in my imagination.
Dr Goodson, I salute you.
charlyd on 5 May '11 said:
god i cant stand the daily fail its been on shelves here in ireland for a few years now and its full of crap and scaremongering basically its a paper version of fox news aimed at middle class wannabees
AegisK on 5 May '11 said:
Shutting Sony and SOE down to steal info seems like a pointless waste of time when The Daily Mail is allowed on the internet. If I was loaded, I'd call it persecution and sue them for being racist against gamers (or whatever the term is, slanderous maybe).
But then I remember I don't care about peoples opinion if they have a lower IQ than me, and since The Daily Mail's journalists got their degree's printed on toilet paper I kinda feel good about it, because they're so bad at selling papers that they have to pick on people and groups like the lame ass bullies they think they are. But we've all seen Casey take on those aussie kids so we already know how this will turn out when they offend the wrong person.
wasted-again on 5 May '11 said:
If a violent game gets you "worked up" they say it's making you violent, but if you stay calm they say it's desensitized you to violence; "Damned if you do, damned if you don't".
STE MO on 5 May '11 said:
Can someone forward this to Ann "bloody" Diamond and the old dim whit on The Wrong Stuff please or I will have to phone him up and have a moan off.
boskersrevenge on 5 May '11 said:
Two things: top notch CVG. Good read that and I did start laughing when I read The Mail's take on the study. Typical typical Daily Mail.
Second thing, Mass Effect 3 is delayed? lol
sonic_uk on 5 May '11 said:
Great article Cvg and may I appluad you for doing what I and so many other p***ed of gamers have wanted for years - an official defence to the ridiculous tabloid inducing false claims about our peaceful pastime by so-called "experts" that couldn't tell a bee from a boing 747 and people who have never played a game in their lives and simply use games as an excuse for the incompetent police, pathetic sentencing and criminal justice (literally exactly that) system we have in this s***hole of a country. Keep it factual and try not to be too cocky otherwise you run the risk of losing credability.
I'm sure a lot of gamers can attest to being angry at some point in their gaming lives (I can certainly remember throwing my Megadrive pad down in anger on more than one occasion) but as the Daily Mail (well known around the world for its factual reporting
) conveniently fails to point out is that there is a very big difference between somebody occasionally shouting at a Tv screen and going out into the real world and beating up/murdering someone. I also find it interesting that Football games were mentioned - a sport where fans regually fight amongst themselves using the outcome of a match as an excuse for physically violent and abusive behavior, yet this sport is not only tolerated my the mainstream media its actually promoted and is recognized by those same tabloids as "the nations sport" which strikes me as more than a little hypocritical. As annoying as they are, I don't see Cod Fanboys fighting in the street, or WoW players beating each other over the head with sticks, but as usual this is ignored by the hypocritical tabloids with their make-it-up-as-you-go facts, while real factual evidence is ignored of course.
r0zm4n on 5 May '11 said:
Where can I buy the good Doc a pint? and Tim too of course.
I love the W.R.O.N.G. campaign. I hope there's merchandise forthcoming, I wants me a T-Shirt with Anne Diamond's fat face spread between my nipples
Nick33 on 5 May '11 said:
I didn't know cvg was so full of liberal retards. You guys are dragging this once decent site into the gutter. It's like reading the daily sport but with more spelling mistakes. This place and the majority who post on it are retarded.
zombiesinmyhead on 5 May '11 said:
Taxi for Mr Giggles!
sonic_uk on 5 May '11 said:
Eh, yeah, sure. Everyone that sticks up for what they believe in is a retard.
WHERESMYMONKEY on 5 May '11 said:
I look forward to reading more of the study. Just had a thought though. It might be worth redoing the study with people already familiar with Gears 2. They may have been quieter while playing gears than FIFA simply because they needed to concentrate more on the controls. FIFAs controls and aims are much simpler than Gears are. Basically we need to get a bunch of gamers to take the test.
Doing so i think would really nail home conclusively the results of this test. then again if they did get more frustrated and aggitated while playing gears then the mail would have a feild day. Although the link would existensively not be that the guys being tested were used to killing people but that they understood the rules and were familiar with the playing of games.
just a thought.
Joe90_Remy700 on 5 May '11 said:
says Mr. 300+ posts...
gmcb007 on 5 May '11 said:
Haha! You're the biggest hypocrite and idiot on this site!
For example:
Just get off this site and don't come back if it's so bad.
JakeyBaby on 5 May '11 said:
Perhaps CVG need a new heading to split up these sorts of articles. It's really interesting stuff, and I'd quite like to access it freely rather than siving through other news items, like announcements etc.
boskersrevenge on 5 May '11 said:
Sorry Nick, I asked you to tone it down a bit and not only did you totally ignore a reasonable request but carried on, only to troll people.
If this place is below your standards, post elsewhere; that ban I've given you should help with that decision making process.
GuTTer on 5 May '11 said:
I donated £50 to a local charity yesterday.
I fully blame this on Assassains Creed where you can walk around dropping money!
How dare games influance me in this way!!!!
zombiesinmyhead on 5 May '11 said:
Ha!
RichPerry on 5 May '11 said:
I am honestly surprised it's taken the Daily Mail so long to get on the WRONG list.
nathar on 5 May '11 said:
CVG - This might be your finest hour.
Thanks for not just reporting this but also speaking to the original source of the research. Most academics are approachable people who are more than happy to discuss their findings, and the shortcomings of their research in reasonable terms. If more hacks tried speaking to us directly we would explain things in terms they understand (single syllable words) because we know they are not trained to offer constructive critiques of complex scientific work like Nick33 has.
Felly117 on 5 May '11 said:
Dr. Simon Goodson. Aka: Legend. Putting Huddersfield (the biggest town in Europe) on the map. Class act. If I meet the guy at Uni I'll be sure to shake his hand.
newsinthefield on 5 May '11 said:
I love how every misinformed article the Daily Mail prints in its newspaper and publishes on its website can be mercilessly ripped apart with the application of logic and fact. I hope to God that the readers of that rag remember the old adage: "You can't always believe what you read."
TallPaul1878 on 5 May '11 said:
http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/dailymail
The Daily Mail just use this to generate a headline and then build a story round it. Tomorrow's headline is: WILL PAEDOPHILES GIVE BRITISH DRIVERS SWINE FLU?
Balladeer on 5 May '11 said:
I got several minutes of fun out of that. My particular favourite: "Is cancer infecting the royal family with AIDS?"
Barca Azul on 5 May '11 said:
I had countless injuries playing football due to too much adrenilin pumping through my body and a quite agressive but fair player.
Id play thorugh injuries and then not be able to walk for two weeks.
The thing is, they just dont want to understand games. they have no interest and so they must be the devils spawn. Its quite simple, like Music, booze, films in the past.
Alcahol ruins far more lives than games ever will, but I bet they and their readers will sit down with a bottle of wine tonight and then become more agressive
rogueybear on 6 May '11 said:
A man was stabbed in front of me a few days ago, he asked for a ambulance before he took his last breath.... i replied "lol, commando noob."
Like_A_Weasel on 6 May '11 said:
"Could Twitter Ruin Your Daughters?"
Epic.
RetroSteveUK on 6 May '11 said:
I'm gonna get a sex change and marry this hero.
PMS Legend on 6 May '11 said:
@Tim Ingham: I love you !haha
These articles always crack me up! 
I've been a reader of CVG since the late 80s, to present and you guys never cease to amaze me. Pride of Britain, right here.
Stay classy
L
sonic_uk on 6 May '11 said:
PMS Legend - welcome mate.