A string of Xbox 'next-gen' CVs heated up the next-gen console rumours this week - but what would they actually do?
According to Saber Interactive CEO, Matthew Karch, who's currently heading up the Halo: Combat Evolved Anniversary single-player campaign, "phenomenal things."
Physics, crowd technology, AI and even the way game characters' bodies are simulated will all be greatly benefited by the PlayStation 4 and Xbox 720, argues Karch, and the innovation they bring could also herald a new age of smaller, licensed games.
The next-generation of consoles will do great things. We're limited in what we can do right now in terms of games and that comes primarily from the power of the processors.
The best way to put it is it's kind of like being given a Lego set with 100 block and a set with 1000 - you can do a lot more with the second set. You have more wiggle room and more blocks to make something big and great.
New consoles will do phenomenal things with physics; I know the guys at Havoc are just chomping at the bit. There are limits, for visual limitations there's texture memory, but games haven't progressed that far over the last decade. Not that game's aren't really good, but the best way I can show that is playing Halo Anniversary.
If you're a ten-year-old kid and you're playing Halo for the first time - and technically you're not supposed to because it's a mature title - you're not going to know it's a ten year old game.
That says two things: firstly that the first Halo was way ahead of its time and secondly that the difference between the best things that came out ten years ago and the best things that come out today is not that substantial.
I think the next generation of consoles are going to enable different types of experiences. If you can generate real dynamic crowds doing real things, you can't do that on the current generation of consoles. If you can have liquid simulations and better cloth simulations, and instead of rigid body animations have soft body dynamics, flexible joints... think about the type of gameplay that could be created with technology as an enabler.
When I look to the future what I say is that I'd love to see downloadable games, even with a license used. They're a good way of getting it out to the public without having to spend against it. People know World War Z - if I can do that game but innovate and do something no one has done before on the gameplay side, I can use that license as a springboard to allow me to innovate.
I'm not a publisher. There's a lot of publishers that want to keep the current consoles because the install base is huge and publishers always do well when there's 120 million consoles out there and people are buying games.
Xbox 360 came out first this time and at least in North America they seem to be ahead. So this time around - and I don't have any insight - I'd be shocked if they didn't come out around the same time.
Then there's the dark horses like the OnLive guys who may get into that next round of TVs or cable boxes. There are latency issues with multiplayer stuff but they'll overcome those eventually, and if not there's still room for those cloud games.
Comments
24 comments so far...
monty_79 on 12 Oct '11 said:
I do think we are towards the end of this generation to be honest. One thing from this article which really resonated with me is the crowd dynamics. Deus Ex HR was brilliant but Detroit and Hengsha felt a bit weird as they were supposed to be these sprawling megalopolis's, but not all that many people actually walking around and doing things. Changing this would be amazing so you could have some streets which you would like to walk down as they are packed with people when trying to loose the police. If not, perhaps you could have huge armies, each with all the individual characters being different, and not the same 20 or 30 repeated.
Not too mention of course the boost in graphics, draw distance and larger environments.
In short, bring it on.
kreemi on 12 Oct '11 said:
Definately.
I'd be happy with current gen graphics for another 5 years but physics are the next great leap in gaming. I think the next gen will reflect that.
Ali_ on 12 Oct '11 said:
We really don't need a new gen yet. Maybe in 3-4 years time but there's plenty of time to milk the cashcow franchises dry before making them shinier.
clayf1ghter on 12 Oct '11 said:
It's not about making them shinier although no doubt they would be. It's as the above and the article have mentioned improving physics, AI an all those gubbins.
TheCrimsonFenix on 12 Oct '11 said:
We don't need new hardware in order to make amazingly great physics or AI. Maybe if developers programmed their own games better, people would see that.
What we got this generation
Fancier looking video games, pretty simple gameplay which was possible on last gen, slightly more advanced physics which didn't do a whole lot more for gameplay, slightly better AI that would still go into retard mode occasionally.
What I bet we will get next generation
Fancier looking video games, pretty simple gameplay, slightly more advanced AI and more realistic physics that have little impact on certain genres.
Unless your new fancy games allow me to submerge underwater without the effect of a texture enveloping my eyes, allow damage and effects on enemies to be dependant on the armour and weapon being used, allow fire, water, wind, pressure and oxygen to be used more realistically, allow me to play without an assistant character repeatedly running on the spot into a wall like a simpleton, allow terrain to effect the footing of a character which takes away the ridiculous treadmill running animation effect, and wrap this all up within a unique experience that isn't just kept to "cool and quirky" and short pick up and play style download only titles...
you can shove your fantasy baiting ways up your exaggerating asses.
TOKEN on 12 Oct '11 said:
5 years is way to long to wait ive been done with this gen a year ago and kinect should of been a 720 thing because of the wait in good games and imo ms released it early because ms didnt want to release it with 720 at a lower cost and to squeeze 18 months before a 720 unveil.
Halo 4 will be a next gen release,E3 Halo cg 2012 hopefully.
Darken on 12 Oct '11 said:
The thing I notice most about games is characters movement, it's a real turn off to see 3- 4 guys all moving in exactly the same manner and not really acting on their environment, as though they are superimposed on the environment rather than being there. I think traditional animation will have to go a much different way. It's not enough to have set animations; some physical or environment-model interaction on a cpu level needs to happen. Different gaits is one thing, what about slamming against a wall, stumbling, putting a hand against a wall, all in a dynamic way. It might no longer be possible to 'read' model frames any more to know when to hit a target but that could be got around.
The second point relates to the last sentence as well, in the way models take damage. I saw a tech demo ages ago (can't remember what it was called but I think it was an intel gpu demo) where an alien model deformed in real time when a ray gun was fired at it, becoming charred down to the skeleton, none of it was preset or different models with set 'blowing apart chunks'. Games need this kind of damage model so realistic damage can be applied *anywhere* to a model.
The second evolution needs to be in the camera, it's too much of a fixed square box behind the character which the player views everything through, although there have been advances in this.
Darken on 12 Oct '11 said:
Yeah your post popped up when I was writing mine, that's what I'm talking about. Same with the damage.
starvinbull on 12 Oct '11 said:
I'd agree with you but for 1 thing in that even just to add ridiculous physics to a current gen game would double, triple, quaduple the ram needed. And that's just physics.
What if games were made 1080p as standard with 16xAA and no pop in. Even with current gen graphics adding those things would increase the overheads consoles would incurr running games dramatically with no increase at all in texture quality, level size, loading times and ai. I think we are 1 generation away from games that look "flawless".
Beetle Bum on 12 Oct '11 said:
This gen was really about HD, if it wasnt for HD most of the current gen of games would never look as good as it does know. So imo the current gen wasn't really that advance even when it was first released. Most if not all current gen console games still havn't bettered Crysis on PC with top specs and that was released many years ago.
Mmmmgrolsch on 12 Oct '11 said:
Déjà vu?
Hmmmm, no thats it I read this already today. Its CVG splitting one piece of news up multiple times for separate articles
bjjcjc on 12 Oct '11 said:
Its all well and good saying 'I will be happy with graphics this gen for another 5 years', sony and microsoft won't be, nor will alot of other gamers, including myself. Consider the following:
1) The PS3 and 360 are based on 5-6 year old hardware. Both consoles have 512mb RAM (360 shared, ps3 split evenly between video RAM and system RAM), and the XBox is severely limited by using a 16 year old optical disk media format to distribute games. As far as running games in native 1080P goes as many have said on here beforehand, 512mb just nowhere near enough, hell you would probably just about get away with that for native 720p, with many PS3 and 360 games (Halo 3, Black Ops) having a native resolution of less than 720p.
2) If the rumoured Wii U specs are true (something along the lines of quad core IBM processor clocked at 3.5ghz, 512mb main memory, 1gb GDDR5 video RAM, 16mb EDRAM), then we will have a machine that will visually offer a marked improvement over what the current gen has to offer within the next 12 months. Do you really think Microsoft and Sony are going to wait aroround for another five years and persist with machines that are no longer the most powerful console on the market by some margin? Do you really think in terms of raw power, a company like Microsoft, is going to be happy being in 3rd place for the next five years? Somehow I don't think so.
3) In terms of visuals, the gap between the PC and consoles is getting wider. Battlefield 3 may look passable on console on a small TV, but try playing it on a large TV which supports 1080p. It looks absolutely horrible!!!!! And this is now. If you stuck with this gen for another five years, it will reach a point much sooner than five years where developers will opt not to port certain games to console because they would not be able to do the game justice, or the consoles just would not be able to handle them.
Whilst Move and Kinect may have probably milked an extra few years for the current gen, and maybe would have milked a bit more had nintendo not announced the Wii U, I don't know who Sony and Microsoft are trying to kid with their '10 year lifecycles'. When Nintendo announced the Wii U, it stuck the fork in this generation of consoles, their done. I just cannot see Sony or Microsoft let Nintendo have a console on the market that is technically superior to both the 360 and PS3 for more than 12-18 months, moreso Microsoft.
Joe90_Remy700 on 12 Oct '11 said:
^^^ some parts very well said. they will very rapidly p**s on nintendo's fireworks shortly after the wii u lauch. and i think its only because of this that they will lauch new consoles, although i dont feel the full potential of either console has been fully utilised
as for devs not bothering to release current gen console games, you are implying that they will do pc only? i doubt it, as consoles are the main market share. either pc games will be the same just a bit better (battlefield 3 having bigger maps/players and better res and fps for example) or pc games will be watered down and the tech will surpass the games even more than they do now (6 and 8 core processors available now are not needed for any games as a quad can easily handle them)
bjjcjc on 12 Oct '11 said:
RE your first bit, as I also said previously. Had Nintendo not announced the Wii U, I think we would have been looking at 2014-2015 for next gen consoles. Think the Wii U launch will have brought it forweard at least 12 months (my estimate is 2013 for next microsoft console, 2014 for next Playstation). I think they must be pretty damn close to pushing the 360 to the limits, although I think the likes of Unchartered 3 show theres a bit of juice left in the PS3.
Re the 2nd bit, was kind of implying that, but not in the here and now. What I was getting at was in 3-4 years time, possibly a bit sooner, when the gap between PC and the 360/PS3 would be substantially wider than it is now, if there was still no next gen consoles as some on here are wishing, then developers may be faced with the agonising choice of either releasing the game on console with a heavily warered down PC version, or with games like BF3 where PC is lead format which pushes existing technology to the limits, accept that there is just no way to release a console version without sacrificing a substantial amount of quality.
Fr33Kye on 12 Oct '11 said:
I feel like i'm always saying how important animations are, and very few in games are believable. No one notices until they are done right but i'm always saying what a huge part it is to make characters feel real. Now i've done some animation, but something to consider for games that large they would need to do A LOT of motion capture, Which then means A LOT of money and even larger disc sizes.
They always claim how amazing next gen will be but they always end up just upping the graphics. They dont want fully dynamic crowds because the graphics will suffer and it will not meet gamers standards. They can't focus on other areas because the appearance will then suffer and gamers will insult it calling it last gen. The best thing to do is let things plateau with a longer generation, because then dev costs go down so more motion capture is feasible, the emphasis on pretty graphics is usually a little lower because very few games standout in that regard, so they can standout in other areas, and consoles are well documented so more can be done with less work.
Prince PS3 on 13 Oct '11 said:
I‘ll be shocked if it doesn't conk out first! My mate has just gifted me his old launch premium and it sounds like a blinkin hairdryer!
T‘will certainly save my heating bill this autumn as you could pretty much fry an egg on it!
Parallax Films on 13 Oct '11 said:
To the simpleton, inconsiderate know-it-all's who think he's talking artistc creativity: He is not! He means to say devs are limited by technical capability of the aging hardware within consoles to be able to furthar push the artistic boundaries. Don't think for a damn second that the brilliant, hard woking minds at Naughty Dog, Infinity Ward, DICE, EPIC, etc.. dont desire the same advancements in hardware capabilitees that this dev who obviosuly knows wtf he is talking about unlike most of the users sitting in front of N4G just yappin their hot headed, disrespectful mouths in a truly non-creative effort to talk as much s**t as possible in order to make themselves feel better! These developers "crying" and "complaining" as some so willingly describe are merely, yet passionately expressing their desire to push their aristic visions furthar without being constrained by any hardware limitations. You can't paint in color with a damn lead pencil. Ya got it!?
Welsh Jester on 13 Oct '11 said:
As long as they don't keep pumping out the same games, good.. no more Halo/insert other FPS that suck on console i hope.
Good thing this will also bring even more awesome PC games since consoles hold it back sometimes.
JBoo on 13 Oct '11 said:
i am sure it will come out 1st. but i am sure sony will not make the same mistake & price the ps4 to high. ms had it easy this gen with sony making the ps3 cost to much & sony not having their online things ready
bjjcjc on 13 Oct '11 said:
Well said.
And lets have it right, with the current hardware, they are constrained. Ram limitations aside, DVD is severely limiting how far developers can push the 360, and although the PS3 does have Blu Ray, the read speed of the drive is slow as hell (2x read speed I believe). Could say a few other things but dont want to turn this thread into yet another system wars thread. But its 6 year old hardware when it comes down to it.
Regarding the next gen consoles, I just hope both companies learn from their mistakes this gen, as they have both made them. Would be great if Microsoft released a console from the off which isn't guaranteed to RROD on you, doesn't sound like a jet engine. As for Sony, how about a console where develpers can hit the ground running, and a hardware configuration which doesn't bottleneck aspects of the system, such as a much faster Blu Ray drive, more flexible RAM.
Darken on 13 Oct '11 said:
This could not be preset or stored animations because as you say the disk size and pre recording would be too much. However possibly something like the kinetic database where it predicts possible movement from a set position based on a library, or a skeleton system which is also aware/connects to points and edges in the game world and can react to them. Models would need some kind of balance system.
The other thing I don't like is ragdolls now. Deadspace 2 and UT3 used them and tbh they just seem like wholly unrealistic dead bodies. Bodies don't float around the floor easily kicked with limbs failing, they should still have weight and some stiffness in the joints. Perhaps this is one area where traditional arts would be need is death animations. I quite like the ones in medal of honour: Allied assault the old old one. The camera and movement in that was quite good too though I think that was down to the engine.
Rage has done pretty well on movement but I need to see more of it to judge properly.
Joe90_Remy700 on 16 Oct '11 said:
nah thats the funniest parts of games, the OTT rag-dolling
Flamestrike on 16 Oct '11 said:
I'd say we're ready for the next generation of games consoles.
My concern, however, is that over time less and less new games are being developed as each generation passes by. In this generation we've been plagued by First Person and Third Person shooters and gimmickry shovel-ware like we've seen on Wii and Kinect, with little room for anything else. I can't help but feel that all the next generation will bring is more of the same, albeit with prettier visuals and a small jump in what can be done with physics.
Outside of the aesthetic side of gaming, have the games this generation really been all that different than the last? Not really, no.
Personally I'd much rather see a major jump in AI as opposed to a push for better aesthetics.
STEVONYMO on 9 Nov '11 said:
I've heard they are to incorporate quantum physics and make possible dimension jumps. You can jump into the spirit world and mow down whole armies of already dead people...So that gets the PC brigade of our gaming backs. Hey their already dead!