European PlayStation boss Jim Ryan thinks that girls are the "the untapped holy grail" of games and he's revealed that Sony wants to appeal to more women with its new handheld, the Vita.
But will women even want to play the Vita? Various companies over the years have tried to muscle into the lucrative 'girl gamers' market, but do girls really play different games to blokes? Or are they trying to fill a niche where there isn't one and, in fact, women are just as happy to play Gears of War or Call of Duty as their male counterparts?
That esteemed scientific establishment, Doritos, found in a survey in July that women were more likely to enjoy games with social elements, like Facebook games, or ones that test their brain power, like Doctor Kawashima's Brain Training. Men were more likely to kick back and relax by blasting the hell out of each other in online war games like Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 or indulge in online gambling games. Other more reliable opinion polls, including one from Nielsen had previously found much the same thing.
Trade show manager and casual gamer Stacy Sterling thinks that there definitely are gender lines in games. She says, "Men and women do seem to gravitate toward different games. Based on me being a casual observer, first-person shooter type games definitely seem to be more popular among males, puzzle games seem to be attractive to females, however RPGs seem to have an attraction to both sexes." It may be politically incorrect to say it, but there's no doubt she's right. If you walk into a LAN event, it's a sausage party, and if you look at the stats for online games, women are actually playing them more than men.
It's absolutely true that some women DO prefer Facebook and casual games to first-person shooters, just as there are probably men who secretly do, too. Likewise I know plenty of women who find those kinds of games boring and prefer the adrenalin rush of a good shooter instead. Everyone has their own personal preferences, but it doesn't mean that ALL women have zero interest in competitive games.
"There are VERY few women play this game, and that has nothing much to do with the quality of it. There is a culture, a consensus that women who play more 'hardcore' games are weird, particularly at the level I play at." So, similar to how it's unlikely that girls and boys are born instinctively preferring powder pink or navy blue, it's probable that society 'pushes' them to an acceptable choice of gaming. Nice girls aren't aggressive or competitive, and to properly enjoy war games you really need to be both.
I think there are myriad reasons why many women prefer games like FarmVille to Battlefield. Not being able to play as a female character, having to put up with sexist comments playing online, sexist treatment of women in the games (or a complete absence of women in the games) and the catch-22 of a lack of other women playing are probably all reasons why women are turned off.
Comments
128 comments so far...
Hashbrown on 23 Dec '11 said:
The games are already there though. My Missus likes the lego games and animal crossing, the more family friendly games. She gets just as excited about gaming as any bloke, pre orderd the DSi and the 3DS and keeps asking when the 3DS animal crossing is coming out. She even tracked down an old PS2 slim and got the old Harry Potter games last year. The difference is the amount of gaming time, girls generally spend less time so games last longer so they aren't looking for the next game quite as soon as most blokes.
lonewolf2002 on 23 Dec '11 said:
Don't know about girls spending less time gaming, known a fair few game just as much/even more than a lot of blokes, tbh it's down to the individual regardless of sex.
As for games designed just for girls/women didn't they try this before and it failed miserably?
slick loose on 23 Dec '11 said:
When I met my Wife, she played Counter Strike: Source and then went on to loving Left 4 Dead. But she has always been the non-girly type and she has always had more male friends then female friends.
I don't know why girls have severely different tastes as blokes but surely it starts as a baby? I mean girls are bought dolls and kitchen sets, while boys are bought Action Man and Nerf guns. Then the parents will pick what TV shows their children will watch, for instance I used to put on Peppa Pig and Dora the Explorer for my daughter. By the time they get to secondary school, girls find gaming a bit geeky, time consuming and sad. While for most boys there is almost a game for anyone, even if you're not that into gaming. For example if you don't like gaming but you like football...FIFA and Football Manager can really bridge the gap. Girls at this age don't really have much to bridge the gap, they like shopping, cute animals and cute boys.
It's not just gaming though that we differ in tastes, look at films. How many men went to see Valentines Day or The Devil Wears Prada? And how many women went to see Team America or Inglorious Basterds?
I'm not sure what my point is...sure girls like hardcore games just as much as boys, it just seems far fewer do. The majority of female gamers though, do play different games from men. I mean how many men bought Deus Ex: Human Revolution compared to women and how many women bought Zumba fitness compared to men?
So yes, games for girls are different from games for men. Just not all of them. I'm shutting up now.
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
This is just patronising sexist s**te isn't it?
roland82 on 23 Dec '11 said:
Interesting piece, good read.
I think as said women are are less happy to be labeled 'gamers' compared to guys. I think we can all agree that COD and gears of war are definitely made with men in mind. Found out a friend of mine was a cityville addict the other day, surprised me so much know her for years and never thought of her as a gamer.
Maybe the real problem starts with too few women in game development??
slick loose on 23 Dec '11 said:
Yes, but to who? I mean these games designed for the female market aim to make you smarter and physically fitter. While games like CoD...well you get my point. Which games are better on the whole, well that's subjective now isn't it.
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
Which girl games make you smarter and fitter?
slick loose on 23 Dec '11 said:
Well no individual game does both but I suppose you could play Brain Training on the DS while doing ZUMBA on the Wii at the same time. I mean, what could possibly go wrong?
http://www.geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/broken-DS.jpeg
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
Wii fit doesn't actually make you fit.
Brain training doesn't make you smarter.
Zumba fitness wont make you fit.
slick loose on 23 Dec '11 said:
Haha, you're on one today! I actually have a friend on FaceBook who has lost weight using ZUMBA (along with a calorie controlled diet). Of course it helps to lose weight, you will lose a lot more weight jumping a round getting the heart beating everyday then sitting there playing CoD.
Brian Training won't make you smarter but it certainly makes you sharper, have you tried it? I did it for about a month and my skills at adding up did improve. I didn't learn anything but it did make me feel smarter adding money up faster than usual.
Any more for any more?
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
I used brain training for a long time, I could do the specific tasks in the 'game' quicker, nothing else, and when you stop using it you even lose that.
You might lose more weight using Zumba than playing Call of Duty, but you probably would lose even more going around shoe shopping, the difference is still going to be minuscule, you need to do some hard graft to a routine or change your diet* to actually have an effect.
*
gamefreak666 on 23 Dec '11 said:
No. I know plenty of gamers, male and female. On the whole they do play the same games, but, in a more social environment there are massive differences.
When was the last time one of your male friends said "let's all get together for a night of Just Dance 3"? I should imagine its quite a rare occorunce. Whereas this is quite a regular thing amongst the female gamers I know.
As for my wife, she doesn't play games at all in general, but when she does it's games like Singstar, Guitar Hero and Animal Crossing. Although she was enjoying playing Ocarina on the 3DS until she got stuck.
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
Well that's just because of social pressures and expectancies to fill a stereotypical masculine/feminine role.
gamefreak666 on 23 Dec '11 said:
It doesn't matter whether it's a stereotype or not. The fact is that there are differences in the games that males and females play. Therefore there is a separate market for each.
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
...which is still sexist and patronising.
gamefreak666 on 23 Dec '11 said:
No. It's selling people games that they want to buy. It it sexist to aim the selling of skirts and bras just to women? just because they are more likely to buy them?
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
Yes.
slick loose on 23 Dec '11 said:
No one is forcing the women to play these games, they themselves choose to play them. They could just as easy go and play FIFA in Tournament mode...but they just plain don't want to. You're making it sound like devlopers have no reason to make these games and that they are being pushed onto women. In most instances these games are the only reason females have consoles.
Why so grumpy Doug? Is it the rain?
gamefreak666 on 23 Dec '11 said:
Sexism is the devaluation of a person based on their gender. How is selling them cloths and games they want to buy in any way discriminating against someone?
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
I think the stereotype of what girls play and what boys play is not quite socially engineered but is something that has nevertheless developed through time (by religion etc.), and I think the way capitalism treats people and markets to them sustains those stereotypes.
slick loose on 23 Dec '11 said:
Ironically, your posts are becoming more sexist. You making it sound like women are just being manipulated into buying they games want and don't seem to be able to make a decision by themselves. Why can't women just enjoy Just Dance 3?
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
Not specifically women, everybody Slick. Why can't men just enjoy Just Dance 3?
I was talking about sex not gender. When you market to a specific sex you sustain the stereotype that I talked about, you're saying 'this is what girls play, this is what boys play', and what the article was saying is that 'boys play CoD, girls play dance games' and that's treating them differently to the point you're assuming their personalities from their sex.
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
I'm perfectly chipper.
slick loose on 23 Dec '11 said:
I'd hate to see to see you on a bad day
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
Is my demeanour much different from usual today?
Queen Skillage on 23 Dec '11 said:
They're basically saying "women don't like blood or violence in games, look, here's a puppy and some herbal tea". There is no such thing as games for men and games for women, each person plays what they like -- so make these games proposed, but for the love of God, don't call them "games for women", market them based on personalities, because some lads might like them too.
slick loose on 23 Dec '11 said:
But if 80% of Just Dance sales were from women , wouldn't that kinda prove that women go for these games? I'm not saying all women play these kind of games...but a lot do, developers wouldn't make them otherwise.
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
It's not in the fundamental nature of women though that they go for pink fwuffy prettifull things.
Queen Skillage on 23 Dec '11 said:
To me that would say that most of the sales are from a female audience, but there's still sales from a male audience. It all goes down as what people as individuals enjoy, it shouldn't be based on their gender.
alan666 on 23 Dec '11 said:
its more down to the control method, girls/women would much rather play with a joystick than a gampad anytime.
FaithCat on 23 Dec '11 said:
I completely agree with Maria Douglas. It's not so much to do with genetics than what's considered 'socially acceptable'. When a friend of mine mentioned to co-workers that she was taking time off to go to a video games convention, they responded with "Is your brother dragging you along?" and "Do you want us to not tell anyone?" as though it was some kind of shameful secret!
One of my pet hates is how everyone is expected to conform to a pre-defined standard depending on their gender - I could really get on my soapbox about this and make this comment far longer than it needs to be so I'll try and keep it short. Basically, no, women definitely DO NOT need special "girl games". It wouldn't be a bad thing if games were more gender-neutral (e.g. more female protagonists, female characters that have a more detailed concept than "shallow love interest" and are equipped with enough sense to know that a bikini is not suitable attire for a gunfight!) but otherwise, games are fine how they are.
Imaduck on 23 Dec '11 said:
More shoes, and dishes, and achievements for parallel parking
.... (just taking the p**s, tis the season)
Girls have as much right and as much of a valid opinion as us dudes, and equally can play whatever the f**k they want. We'd have more of them if rbt went on holiday
I think the thing is that a girl online gets either "therizknogurlzonlien!1" and assumed to be a pervy dude, "titzorgtfo" or just other random bs. It's an awkward one and I'm not sure how to fix it. Many of the sort of "pro-girl gamer" type dudes are just taking a different route to trying to get dirty pictures 
As far as I'm concerned, girls should do whatever they want. If you get s**t, either mute the bastards or own them like only a woman can (yes, smart remaks from girls can flatten even the most arrogant arse
). I think gaming has become a very male inhabited realm in some areas, but they won't give the space to girls, girls need to respect themselves enough to simply take what they have every right to.
jm3811 on 23 Dec '11 said:
I can usually tell the nationality of the people I play with - more easily than the ones I play against.Not the age so much. But the sex? Not for the same reasons.
I can speak mostly from my experience with GTA, since it is an adventure where people socialize, as they use the chat-rooms regularly in coop mode. Girls/ladies/chicks are sharp shooters, they have an inner sense of the gameplay and the objectives, they drive helis like kamikaze and yet with an incredible accuracy. They are great team mates and they have an amazing sense of humor.
The fun bit is to use a female character when you fool around in free roaming mode. You can feel the blokes' tongues dropping, they follow you like stalkers.. until you jump off their fancy car and dive from a bridge.
When I play with someone who behaves like a tit chances are that it's usually a dick.
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
What the f**k?
jm3811 on 23 Dec '11 said:
You never played with Riojiun did you?
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
Are you extrapolating this data from the one girl you know?
lonewolf2002 on 23 Dec '11 said:
Legend Turtle on 23 Dec '11 said:
There is a pre-disposition for certain different genders to seek interactions of a different type.
Yeah, waste your time arguing that everyone would have exactly the same taste if they weren't peer pressured if you like; but don't come crying to me when 90% of the players in your newbie-friendly, gender-neutral, first person shooter are male.
That's how things would be in the wild.
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
Genders are not the same as sexes, genders are a social thing, not a biological thing; stereotypically men are masculine and women are feminine. Get that through your head first. Now, in the 'wild' men are usually hunters and women are not, this is not because it's just how it should be, it's because biologically it's evolved to be a good strategy to survive IN THE WILD.
Not having peer pressures isn't enough for everybody to have the same taste, if those eradicated peer pressures include all stereotyping and assumptions that men do one thing and women do another (socially not biologically) then I would absolutely bet that there would not be an assumed gender for either sex. Also that the a gender-neutral game would have roughly the same amount of players from all over the gender rainbow. At the moment in this world with the current influences yes more men play Call of Duty than women, that does not mean that men are intrinsically more inclined to play Call of Duty than women.
slick loose on 23 Dec '11 said:
I respectfully disagree Doug. If you get every man in the Country to choose out of Call of Duty or Just Dance and then do the same for the women, what do you think the choices would be by percentage? I pretty much guarantee you more men would pick CoD and more women would pick Just Dance. I don't know exactly why, maybe it's the way we are brought up or maybe it's biological (Fact is men have testosterone and women have estrogen), maybe it is the peer pressures we experience through life or maybe it's all 3 combined...or none!
All I do know is that a LOT of women buy games like Just Dance and Nintendogs etc and so therefore there is clearly a market for these kind of games and just so happens it's mainly the female variety. I can see why 'proper' female gamers get offended by these stereotypical views...but numbers speak louder then words in this industry.
I like musicals, no joke. As a man I'm not 'supposed' to, it's only 'socially acceptable' for women and homosexuals. But I don't get all p**sy about it, I realize more women watch musicals then men and so therefore I am not their target audience. Doesn't stop me from watching the musicals, Hairspray is great...a bit cheesy mind.
My point? The 'girl' market for gaming is just jargon for 'casual gamers who are female', it's not aimed at every female. So I'm not sure what the big problem is. Should I be offended because I'm the target audience for the FIFA and CoD games, when in fact I can't stand the two? No, I just don't play them. Same with female gamers, if you don't like games like Just Dance, no one is saying you should play only them...play whatever you like! The point of this article was to point out that there is a market for female casual gamers, hence the amazing sales.
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
Slick are you f**king kidding me? Did you even read what I wrote?
No s**t.
Read my posts
Maybe read my posts, it's absolutely a minimal amount of biology and near maximum of social experiences/pressures/influences.
It doesn't "just so happen", read my posts.
Literally nothing to do with anything.
Also literally nothing to do with anything.
The problem, if you so chose to see it as one, is that people are influenced by society to become more like their stereotype.
And my points was it's sexist and patronising.
slick loose on 23 Dec '11 said:
You're talking like your opinion is fact...I disagree. I stand by my post, although I do ramble. You seem to be so sure that you're right, that people are just influenced to play the games they play.
But hey, I like your 'I'm right' attitude, more power to you!
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
It's as much my opinion as gravity and the big bang is, it's near enough. Learn your stuff, but hey if you want to believe it's all a mystical force that makes men play shooters and women play dance games then who am I to stop you being ignorant.
slick loose on 23 Dec '11 said:
Your view is "it's sexist and patronising." Everything that is advertised is then sexist and patronising, is it not? The fact is more women buy games like Just Dance, that's not being sexist...THAT'S FACT! So it's considered a girl game, just as much as FIFA is considered a boys game. Is having Just Dance being advertised during 'Loose Women' sexist, or is it just knowing your target audience.
That's it for me on the matter, I realize it's like talking to a brick wall. Love you to bits though, keep fighting the good fight my feminist soldier!
EDIT (cos you edited): "but hey if you want to believe it's all a mystical force that makes men play shooters and women play dance games then who am I to stop you being ignorant." Try reading my post, i tried to explain, it's not my fault you are ignoring everything I say.
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
You did say "just so happens" like it was the hand of God.
FGSFDS There is a difference between gender and sex, Fifa is a game targeted at a masculine audience, and because it's socially assumed that dudes are masculine it's gets targeted at dudes, because it's easy to do. That is sexist, that is patronising.
Absolutely if it's targeting sexes as though they're genders.
Now Just Dance is advertised during Loose Women because the markets overlap considerably, to say only GIRLS rather than FEMININE PEOPLE like Just Dance is sexist and patronising.
Read it, highlighted it, gave you feedback, can't do more than that.
It all rides on genders Slick, they're not black and white, boy and girl, but it would be simpler to market to them if they were, so they're made out to be.
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
Jesus Christ I'm tired and I might not be explaining it in a way you understand, I need to sit down and explain this to you from the top.
slick loose on 23 Dec '11 said:
Please...please don't. I appreciate the effort you have put in, really I do...people get to lazy on here and just revert to calling each other the magic 'C' word. But we are not getting anywhere, you keep going on about the differences about gender and sex while I'm just pointing out the obvious.
Maybe you're just too clever for me and my tiny little mind can't comprehend what it is you're trying to say. Or maybe you're just a stubborn c**t, or we are just playing Devils Advocate to each other just for the sake of it.
Either way, is this really that important? And even if it is important to you, is posting in this forum really going to change anything?
Let's call it a night old chum.
spaceman_DOUG on 23 Dec '11 said:
If you don't understand that's fine, but don't call me a stubborn c**t or suggest I'm playing Devil's advocate. I'm willing to keep going, for me I find it very simple to understand why marketing to a sex as if it's a gender is sexist and patronising. If you don't want to continue that's up to you and you needn't worry what I think of you.
To me, it is probably more important than you might think, if you don't speak up against anything then nothing changes. Admittedly not much will change by posting in a forum, but it's always good to practice your logic.
NEO_SUPERMAN on 24 Dec '11 said:
Well at least your right about one thing spaceman doug.
Brain age certainly didn't make you smarter.
rbt2 on 24 Dec '11 said:
Hahaha.
Sorry Douglas but you've gotta admit..........that was a good one.
Mmmmgrolsch on 24 Dec '11 said:
Well written that and fully agree.
spaceman_DOUG on 24 Dec '11 said:
Brain age? I'm sorry, but if you're going to try and insult me, at least try and get the name of the game right, you insignificant little s**t.
spaceman_DOUG on 24 Dec '11 said:
Here's what I've already said in a shortened down form.
Sex =/= Gender
Sex is biological, gender is a human invention.
Stereotypically men are masculine and women are feminine, through human history that's been pretty much assumed, not least because of how we evolved and religious influences.
Companies market to sexes rather than genders, because it's easy to do as there's already that massive overlap, and it also keeps the target markets being black and white. They know it's not black and white, which is why it's patronising, and it's sexist because they're treating sex as gender.
slick loose on 24 Dec '11 said:
My God, if I hear you say sex and gender are 2 different things one more time...
spaceman_DOUG on 24 Dec '11 said:
Well do you understand that? Because that's pretty much key.
slick loose on 24 Dec '11 said:
Nope..all my life I have been taught that my gender is male, it's even on some questionnaires! And tbh even if I did bother to wiki the 2 a read up...I still don't see your point. You seem more bothered about definitions then the subject at hand.
But hey, I'm too stupid to understand...so maybe give up, eh?
spaceman_DOUG on 24 Dec '11 said:
Your gender is not male, your sex is male, biologically you have dangly bits.
gmcb007 on 24 Dec '11 said:
It must be some miracle that rbt has not spoken his mind in here!
rbt2 on 24 Dec '11 said:
Nodalot to say on the matter really, gmc.
Men have tails and women have no tails.
As far as this sexist c**t is concerned.
All this sex/gender malarkey is a loada bollox to me.
Or a loada vag.
From the no-tail perspective.
Natch.
Or should that be snatch?
I dunno.
Don't fink it mattas much.
spaceman_DOUG on 24 Dec '11 said:
Back to the 1950s with you already.
gmcb007 on 24 Dec '11 said:
Multiplayerking on 24 Dec '11 said:
Homosexual.
NEO_SUPERMAN on 24 Dec '11 said:
Well done on illustrating my point.
Google it and get back to me...
spaceman_DOUG on 24 Dec '11 said:
Check my post count, check your post count, f**k off.
NEO_SUPERMAN on 24 Dec '11 said:
Merry Xmas!
rbt2 on 24 Dec '11 said:
Come on chaps. Play the game please. It is xmus eve-up afterall!
If I wanted a big f**k off row then I'd tell the old woman I'd got her a tasty looking ironing board.
Just like last year.
But I don't.
I wanna sit here watching telly and posting the odd post whilst having a quiet little jolly up.
Thank you.
NEO_SUPERMAN on 24 Dec '11 said:
OK Rbt, your right, your always right god dammit!
Merry Christmas Doug, I love you.
slick loose on 24 Dec '11 said:
Nothing to see here, move along.
spaceman_DOUG on 24 Dec '11 said:
It's 'you're' not 'your'.
NEO_SUPERMAN on 24 Dec '11 said:
Did you mean "IT" gets targeted at dudes?
slick loose on 24 Dec '11 said:
GRAMMAR WARS!
Only one will survive...
spaceman_DOUG on 24 Dec '11 said:
I've made plenty more typos before that, you can try and find them all if you want. I suppose your mistakes were typos too, just coincidently made the same typo twice.
Multiplayerking on 24 Dec '11 said:
Rbt, get her an electric sweeping brush.
God damn genius invention!
gmcb007 on 24 Dec '11 said:
C'mon Doug, it's nearly christmas. It's the time for happiness, not bitter feuds. Leave the hostility until the 27th when everybody is hungover and angry again! Merrry Christmas y'all!
jm3811 on 24 Dec '11 said:
If I keep reading this I'll probably see a spaceshift coming out of the closet.
I miss Zak McKracken.
spaceman_DOUG on 24 Dec '11 said:
I'm a Marxist Atheist. Christmas to me is like a kryptonite orgy to Superman, or France to a vegitarian!
The_KFD_Case on 25 Dec '11 said:
If you are determined to interpret it that way. And this is the legacy of rampant political correctness run amok: in an effort not to offend anyone, common sense and fact are watered-down, even sacrificed, in the process.
The *empirical* fact is that there are differences between men and women - certainly in the general sense. On an individual level there may be a lot of similarities between one man and one woman while in another pairing the opposite holds true. Hence why going by averages becomes a bit of a loaded game. Anyway, both social conditioning and genetics do in fact result in there being differences in the way men and women think, act, and react. That's not to say there isn't common ground and overlap, there is, and just because we are different doesn't mean each gender shouldn't have the same rights and opportunities in-so-far as the individual in question is capable of handling such. But to claim that pointing out what is in fact, fact as being "sexist and patronising" strikes me as being downright bigoted and oppressive. Ironically politically correctness ends up being similar to the very things it has set out trying to counter-act.
spaceman_DOUG on 25 Dec '11 said:
I'm not something so middle of the road as politically correct.
I didn't claim any facts were sexist and patronising, I claimed that the marketing to sexes as if they were genders is sexist and patronising. Don't try and read anything else into that.
The_KFD_Case on 25 Dec '11 said:
So creating a product with a specific user group and marketing it directly to them is sexist and patronising? Like I stated previously, if you are determined to take it that way. Then again if you're determined enough anything and anyone can be deemed offensive. Methinks you doth protest too much.
slick loose on 25 Dec '11 said:
KFD, gender isn't the same as sex...come on!
spaceman_DOUG on 25 Dec '11 said:
Helpful, Slick, v helpful.
This article doesn't talk about marketing to a specific user group, it talks about marketing girl games to girls.
Methinks I only protested a little and people protested my protest too much.
slick loose on 26 Dec '11 said:
I do what I can
Imaduck on 26 Dec '11 said:
What's the difference between gender and sex?
Gender: man or woman
Sex: man or woman
How are they different things ?
spaceman_DOUG on 26 Dec '11 said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender
slick loose on 26 Dec '11 said:
That's it...
http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/1/7/7/3/8/8/1/gun-head-16437634496.jpeg
spaceman_DOUG on 26 Dec '11 said:
http://filmforno.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/normal_dr_strangelove01.jpg
djreplay on 26 Dec '11 said:
Men like shooting games (hunting), women mainly like Nintendog's and Farmville (gatherer). These natural instinct's have been with since the dawn of time and can't be argued with.
spaceman_DOUG on 26 Dec '11 said:
That is a load of sexist bulls**t.
rbt2 on 26 Dec '11 said:
I bet you're a hoot a New Year's Eve parties then, Dougie boy?
spaceman_DOUG on 26 Dec '11 said:
I hadn't given up drinking until after my last one, so I don't remember all of it. Neither the Marxist or Atheist aspects really have anything to do with New Year though.
djreplay on 26 Dec '11 said:
That's more of an observation into the purchasing habits of male and female gamers.
slick loose on 26 Dec '11 said:
Wow, couldn't of put it better myself...and in one sentence too!
spaceman_DOUG on 26 Dec '11 said:
So what? What are you trying to say? Because you've observed men and women, on average, buying their stereotypically allotted games, that men and women have this intrinsic property that means they'll play the games that are most representative of what their ancestors did?
This article is sexist and patronising. Yes men and women on average do buy the types games marketed at them, that is not going to change any time soon, but that is not also to say that it's right that it should be assumed of men and women that they're going to want to play different games, or are different in any way apart from their biology, because of what sex they are, and not what gender they are.
What do you say to a man who is very effeminate? Or a very masculine women? They aren't normal for liking what you're saying is normal for them to like?
slick loose on 26 Dec '11 said:
http://creativekitchenportfolio.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/yorkie.jpg
spaceman_DOUG on 26 Dec '11 said:
Do you want me to tell you that's sexist too? Well, it is, although you're meant to take it with a pinch of salt it does uphold that old stereotypical view of the sexes.
rbt2 on 26 Dec '11 said:
FFS Doug!
Slick's been made a mod and you ain't!
This is fact so accept it.
You've been chasing the poor bastard down since it was public.
Give it a f**king rest, eh?
And with that I bid you all good night.
Don't forget now though, Doug........Leave it f**kin' ahhhhhhhhhhht!!!!!
gmcb007 on 27 Dec '11 said:
Best f**king post in this thread.
spaceman_DOUG on 27 Dec '11 said:
With the things I've said there's little change of me being made a mod.
Well actually Slick did say there was a specific mod that was going out of his way to stop me becoming a mod, over PMs, but that's another story. I don't have anything against the lad, I thought he didn't want in on this discussion any more anyway, but he did come back whilst I was posting to other people. I haven't been chasing him at all, it takes two to tango.
The_KFD_Case on 27 Dec '11 said:
It is in the informal usage of the word(s)....Unless you are referring to copulation, coitus, procreation, etc?
slick loose on 27 Dec '11 said:
Firstly, it wasn't over PM's at all. It was discussed in the mod forums by more than one mod. Basically they don't trust you with any power and at first I thought it was a bit harsh, but I've come to their way of thinking.
Since I've become a mod you have been on my case. In the forums we keep clashing heads, funny how that never happened before. Then you try to influence how I should act as a mod via PM's.
The thing is, how can you tell me how to act with the amount of bans and warnings have you had for your behaviour? You have called my Wife a bitch when I asked you to stop and then there was the time you thought it was funny to post something about sexually molesting my 3 year old daughter. And you tried to defend that has 'humour'.
As for the last PM you sent me, I haven't "turned" on you but it has been increasingly obvious you resent me for getting mod status. I mean seriously, is it really that important? My name is green and I deal with spam...it's hardly something to be proud of.
Funny thing is you would be a mod if you wasn't such a C U Next Tuesday. So please stop judging my behaviour as a mod when you have probably the longest report page on here, it's incredibly hypercritical.
Thanks!
Balladeer on 27 Dec '11 said:
That said, Slicky, why aren't you a global mod. yet? We could do with one more, as the spammers seem to be increasingly active recently.
slick loose on 27 Dec '11 said:
I'm gonna put in a request today, having to report a spammer instead of getting rid of them myself is getting very old.
And a fanboy!? The cheek...
spaceman_DOUG on 27 Dec '11 said:
I mean you and me over PMs, not you and other mods over PMs.
You came to me actually.
Yeah that was ages ago Slick. I'm not telling you how to act either, I only pointed something out in the other thread, I'm hardly lecturing you. If you thought I was out of order then you could warn me about it, though I guess this is the public version.
Oh heck, Slick, I don't resent you for being a mod, I say it myself at every opportunity that it very unlikely that I'll be made mod, anyway I seem to get on the wrong side of all the mods from time to time so it's not just you.
Also I have the longest report page? Haha, that is quite funny really.
This threads been completely derailed now, I don't see how we've come to this after you said you weren't going to discuss the topic any more.
slick loose on 27 Dec '11 said:
I...can't be arsed.
It must of been all in my head.
Let's just see how things progress.
spaceman_DOUG on 27 Dec '11 said:
You said that before and now look where we are!
rbt2 on 27 Dec '11 said:
I'm just f**king choked that Doug has a bigger report list than me.
*Note to self......must try harder next year*
spaceman_DOUG on 27 Dec '11 said:
I'm going to have to stop reporting you so you don't get ahead!
slick loose on 27 Dec '11 said:
It's not even remotely close
rbt2 on 27 Dec '11 said:
You won't be saying that this time next year, Slicko.
Ya c**t.
El Mag on 27 Dec '11 said:
I'll report that for you, I'll wait until the 1st of Jan though so it counts for next year.
Don't any cheeky feck do it before!
slick loose on 27 Dec '11 said:
Well before you start trying to farm for reports, that's not what I meant. I can't see total reports, I can only see actions made by a mod against a user, for example warnings and bannings. Rbt2, you have 4 from sept 2010...your first was from bosker, was hilariously serious!
Doug has 14...from March...this year
The first was the incident with my daughter.
El Mag hasn't had a single one! f**king goody two sho...I mean, yeah, good one mate! You set a great example to everyone else
El Mag on 27 Dec '11 said:
Somebody got a bit upset I said Rolf Harris should be punched live on the telly last week, that's good enough for me, I'll be getting a letter from Ofcom instead.
rbt2 on 27 Dec '11 said:
4????????
f**king 4????????????
What sorta f**king morons read this site? (that last sentence may bump it up a bit. f**king morons)
Now this ain't fair see as Drugless has personal digs at families whereas I won' t do that sorta thang.
And I don't do it cos if it was done to me then I'd..........well I dunno what I'd do but you know waddI mean.
Dontcha?
spaceman_DOUG on 27 Dec '11 said:
f**k your family, personally.
flash501 on 28 Dec '11 said:
This is like watching two chavs bragging about their asbo's!
spaceman_DOUG on 28 Dec '11 said:
Much safer though, no pigs to bash our heads in!
TheCrimsonFenix on 29 Dec '11 said:
..okay.
The industry and any one wanting to make games for girls.. needs to stop patronising and condescending the females of our species. They will either want to play them or they won't. There isn't a perfect ingredient for getting a girl interested in a video game. For the most part, the casual audience can consist of female gamers but only because those games usually are quick little simple games but what else would you get with the casual audience? Even non-gamer guys will treat those games the same way. What else did game designers expect when society pretty much started and grew with that world where women were a step behind men and brushed aside for the non-man jobs and tasks? You either stick with the pathetic and small minded mindset or you become someone who sees equality with us all, which is what a lot of girls and women who game have done. Either a person will like something based on what they have seen, or they will not. Simple as that.
Some girls happily play games but just stick with Mario because they refuse to get into the shooty pew pew games like Call of Duty. Why? Because guns and war doesn't interest them, obviously. If however, they see something involving characters that seem striking to them, they will become interested and look into it, you know, what everybody else does when seeing a new game. My girlfriend for example, loves New Super Mario Bros Wii because it is something she can just get right into with her friends which has a nice simple premise to it; Get to the end and save the princess. I first smiled when I found this out and she instantly jokingly told me to go play Shooter of Duty because that is what is shown to be gaming these days on the tv. I just told her I don't play those anywhere near as much as I would other games such as Metal Gear, God of War, Deus Ex, Mafia, etc and the first thing she asked was, "You kill people in those don't you?". They focus on the killing, something which is involved in a lot of games and they stick to it. She obviously doesn't think that way now because she actually listened to me instead of just brushing it aside as a lot would when they're blasted with killing video game advertisements. Now here she is making arrow to the knee jokes and actually understanding why it is such a big thing on the internet. She isn't the biggest gaming geek obviously but it is nice to have her actually understand one of my hobbies rather than dismiss it like a lot of people have been known to do when questioning something they know little of. Can't wait til I try her on Skyrim and hear her question me on what to do and see her reaction when she realises it is no where near as linear as a typical actiony game nowadays.
So yeah, just get on with it and make your game. If you find yourself making changes and straining to win over an audience which was never interested in your game to begin with then.. you're going to alienate your original audience which you should be trying to satisfy in the first place. If a person, not necessarily just a girl, likes your game or idea, they will play it. Forget trying to change the actual idea, get people to understand what there is to like and love about the idea.
gmcb007 on 29 Dec '11 said:
Well there you go folks. Fenix has summed it up pretty nicely. Now lets allow this article to sink into the depths of the archive only to re-emerge when some new user writes something random in it 6 months down the line.
slick loose on 29 Dec '11 said:
I'm not a new user from the future, I just disagree...
So they should just ignore sales, just so not to offend anyone? And I wish people would stop going on like the gaming industry is the only industry that targets specific groups with their products. Every product has a target market, be it for 5 year old girls to 60 year old men. If these casual types of games are being bought by mainly women aged 16-30 (pulled number out of my arse), then surely that is that type of games Target Audience? It's not being sexist, it's about making as much money as possible. Look at shopping adverts, 90% of them seemed to cater to women. Sexist or is the weekly shopping more likely done by a woman? I'm not saying women should do it or all women do it, it's just more women do. It's called market research and every product out there has had it and has built up a target audience.
The fact of the matter is, more girls/women by these casual games and the publishers see that their is money to be made from it. They are not saying that only women buy these games and nor are they saying that these are the only type of games that females play...it's just their target audience.
And the way you spoke about your girlfriend seemed a bit demeaning to me. You're acting like her playing Skyrim is some sort of cool experiment. Maybe that's just me.
Now I mean no offence Crimson, and I'm also familiar with your work (I have no shame in saying that I know starting a debate with you is stupid, I would be punching way above my weight) but surely you can see that the gaming industry isn't the only industry that does this.
Please don't hurt me
TheCrimsonFenix on 29 Dec '11 said:
I wouldn't say it is demeaning.. just using it as a means to get her to see what I tried telling her. Skyrim or any other open ended game can show her that games aren't just about shooting soldiers for points in a linear fashion. Which games sell the most at the end of the year? Which games have ridiculously large events to celebrate their release? Which games get the most talked about on tv because of some controversial scene? When people see largely the same thing over and over, they come to the conclusion that that is the only thing going on with it. It's easy for people to think like that when that is mostly what they see every time they glance over at something.
If someone tries something out thoroughly and they don't like it, they're unlikely to come back later and love it. It just gets ridiculous when they bring scientific surveys into the equation talking about brain activity in one gender over another. If there is anything I'd label as demeaning, it would be the headline of this article. "Games for girls"? What, people are going to make games specifically for girls in mind? How would that go exactly, making more cooking mama titles? More Barbie adventure games? It's that silly frame of mind that the industry goes through when they want more girls in their audience.
My point is that people like what they like. Yes, guys like football, UFC, wrestling and all sorts of other "masculine" like things but then, so do girls too, just not all of them. If they have an audience that is buying what they are selling, they should stick to it, like you say. They'd be stupid not to. I'm not singling out this article and saying that everything I have said applies to the point of this article, just that certain industry big guys shouldn't be drawing a line down the middle of both genders as though they can get even more of one on their side by applying their content to what a gender apparently likes. A little less "Girls don't like this because of that" and a lot more "Here is why we love this, try it out if you want".
"In my view, real gamers are the type of people who are happy to lose a day to gaming or stay up all night as they are not in a position to stop game play. The quick five minute game that I play here and there on my phone and can put down at any time is different."
If I read the back of a cereal box every morning, does that make me a "reader"? Why bother singling it out? You either do something or you don't. You either like something or you don't. Too much thinking, not enough doing. It may be their target audience and they may not necessarily be saying that only girls play these games but when they want more sales, what do they do? They look at their market research and think, "hmm, I know what girls like, let's make what some numbers tell us they like" and the snowball rolls down the hill. It ends up doing more bad than good, just like when sequels broaden their audiences.
You're right too about the gaming industry, it isn't the only one that does this but this is a gaming website were on so we're obviously going to be singling it out.
I'm nice! Really nice! I may ramble on and on.. sometimes my point gets lost in all the s**t I write. I'm nice, I have to be.. you're a mod
slick loose on 29 Dec '11 said:
I never said you weren't nice. It's just that if anyone wants to debate with you, they best come prepared!
gmcb007 on 29 Dec '11 said:
Well one thing that we can all agree on is that Bobby Kotick is a prick! Now, who wants a post-debate sandwich?
jm3811 on 29 Dec '11 said:
There was never a debate because there was too much rambling, mostly from one individual who kept shutting others down.
But here's a reason why most girls would not play FPS much. This was posted by a girl/woman.
It's not a phenomenon which is limited to such games; as a matter of fact it's widespread and the lack of female characters is a marketing error. Or a marketing innocence.
I've still played with quite a few ladies (not just one) and I'll stand by my opinion that once they get involved they are above the average player.
I also believe that had the gaming industry taken the same bias than the cosmetic business then boys would certainly be involved in inflatable activities instead of doing the CoD or the BF.
TheCrimsonFenix on 29 Dec '11 said:
I see exactly what Doug was saying and in a few ways I was repeating it. I wouldn't have so bluntly put businesses down as being sexist for wanting to sell to their core audiences who just so happens to consist of women. What he was saying is just too damned deep to get into on this website because it is something that won't change today's society, which is what everyone else was just saying when disagreeing with him. Should a company continue to keep those who enjoy playing Facebook games and Dance games happy by creating more of what they know the audience loves? Yes. Should they try to garner more attention from a specific group by making their product more "girl friendly" because they've heard or developed the idea that that is what girls "like"? You tell me. In my opinion, games and movies and other forms of entertainment were better when they were made with a purpose of telling a story and giving you a good time, not for money. Then again, this is now, not then.
Bobby Koprick is an arse and Doug would be free to wear a skirt if it wasn't for his social and moral obligation not to due to it not being a "masculine" thing to do.
Speaking of video game character genders, has any male here ever been bothered that they play as a female in Tomb Raider? That question is aimed towards those who won't respond with, "not if I get to see her norks".
TheLastDodo on 29 Dec '11 said:
Couldn't give a toss personally.
Not played Tomb Raider but Mirrors Edge protagonist is a woman called Faith and didn't have a problem with that at all, while Faith was hardly the most developed character ever you couldn't say she was a stereotypical female gaming character in terms of appearance and personality.
spaceman_DOUG on 30 Dec '11 said:
Could of used the backup earlier Mr. Fenix!
I would love to go out looking like Grayson Perry and not get the s**t beat out of me.
As for the whole sex of the protagonist business, I don't think that matters at all.
slick loose on 30 Dec '11 said:
Yeah, but, he has a quote...from AN actual woman. You can't beat that. When Tomb Raider is released it will be bought by 50% or more by women and 50% or less by men! YOU WILL SEE!
TheCrimsonFenix on 30 Dec '11 said:
Turn off that bedside lamp and go back to bed, it's early!
-rolls over-