Rocksteady's Sefton Hill believes that tax breaks in other territories have resulted in a "real talent drain" in the UK game development scene.
Hill replied by saying although he "definitely thinks" the UK can compete, the benefits of developing in other countries is undeniable and the effects it's having on talent in the UK is obvious.
"A lot of my friends have moved abroad to get work; there's a real talent drain. Montreal is a central place for development and it's mainly because the tax breaks they give are so phenomenal," he said.
Hill bemoaned the trend since "home computers were so popular and the bedroom programming scene was so big" in the UK, but said that over time that talent is migrating elsewhere.
"We have some of the best talent in the world in this country. That situation is rapidly changing... We have great developers here but those numbers are dwindling," he explained.
"You just think about quality developers like Bizarre Creations, Black Rock - people who are making really good games and going out of business. Those guys were so talented so how can that happen?"
According to the Canadian government 86 companies and 8,236 jobs have relocated to Montreal and Quebec as a result of its 37.5% subsidy on developers' salaries. Hill believes with similar government backing the UK could have been as big a development hotspot as Montreal is now.
"I just think that we could have been in Montreal's position with that backing from the government. It's such a big industry now and we could be world leaders."
Last month French protocols for game development tax relief expired, effectively resulting in an 'EU-wide ban' on game tax breaks. Heavy Rain developer Quantic Dream is considering moving to Canada as a result.
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Comments
16 comments so far...
metallicorphan on 9 Feb '12 said:
spot on
not sure what the tax situation was like back in the 80s but the 80s was a golden age for UK and video games,we were great but its unrecognisable to today the UK video game companies have nearly all either been taken over or shut down
Megatrons_Fury on 9 Feb '12 said:
The uk was the world leader in games during the latter stages of the 1980's, the home programming scene of the c64, spectrum then through to PC and especially the Amiga made this country great.
The reason as i explained in another post as to why we are not is much simpler than tax breaks........... They all got greedy, they all made terrible business decisions that have now hugely ruined a new generations hopes of working in this country.
Bizarre creations died quite simply because they decided to take the big cash cop out and jump ship to Activision and lost all creative control and within 18 months went because they were told not asked or chose to make bond games, i have no sympathy for them at all, several years ago EA showed that if you lost your creative control and signed up under their banner then you would go from big sign on bonus to complete death in less than 2 years, companies should have learned from that, they didnt.
Another great example of how to ruin a company is CORE design, once they were the pinnacle of this countries talent, everything they did turned to gold then they got extra lucky with LARA CROFT and it all went to their heads, i remember a quote from the guy who invented Laura herself saying that he wanted a ferrari for every toe he had....... He then left to make a game called Galleon....... Which bombed......... He lost almost all his money and had to go back to work for the old company... MORON!!!!
If you look at other successfull companies in other industries that have been around for decades and look at why they have been so rich for so many years its because they didnt make one decision off of another one wether good or bad, they had a long term set of goals and always made sure they never over-reached.
Its not like the recession just crept up on us all, we knew it was coming for years before, even before people started using the phrase credit crunch big business knew what was on the horizon, if they failed to plan for the lean times and are now paying the price then as much as i feel sorry for those folk who will lose their jobs because thats a horrible thing to have happen to you i can not justify their company getting tax breaks.
I would rather kids get a better standard of education and we all get a better health care system than making sure lionhead can afford to give the world another fable game..... There will always be games from somewhere none of us paying customers will lose out so dont panic.
c3dpo on 9 Feb '12 said:
^^
wow great post mate,
I personally would like to see the breaks, as otherwise many will pack up an move, there's already been loads.
We dont need further unemployment, and tbh health is a joke even if private so not bothered about that ( I was burnt by NHS and private)!
Schools, lol keep it, I learnt more from my own research and experience than school.
Either way, everything you said was spot on mate, and refreshing to read on this site. You must work in the industry or have viewed it like no other gamer I know, so hats off to you sir.
No need to flame me about the schools or NHS jibe, I couldnt care less lol
jim2wheels on 9 Feb '12 said:
Can someone explain to me why the UK game industry should get a tax break? Other than the fact another country is doing it, I don't see what other reason there is.
alan666 on 9 Feb '12 said:
but the people that do leave to go & work in Canada are able to take advantage of a better health care system & better education for their children.
nathar on 9 Feb '12 said:
If successful, the industry would produce more taxable money, even with a tax break, than not having the industry at all. It also brings a bit of kudos which if I recall correctly can unlock some pretty awesome cars.
jim2wheels on 9 Feb '12 said:
Based on that logic wouldn't every industry be included in that statement? Every industry has to pay tax, just like you and me. Unless your saving lives or doing something of that ilk, I don't see the justification for it.
10699 on 9 Feb '12 said:
The one thing your missing out which is the main contributor to this, is it was a s#@? tonne cheaper to produce what was then termed a AAA game, and the profit came back alot faster. Compared with now where a current gen game can cost between £5mill and £20 mill to produce across a 2-5 year period, plus the suits were yet to come in (read publishers) p**sing away tonnes in marketing and "research", increasing costs and sacrificing quality for profits. Tax breaks are given to the UK film industry, I think there is a very weak arguement against why the videogame industry shouldn't recieve the same benefits. The point is there is a hell of alot of money to be made in games for the country, its a multi billion dollar industry! During the 80s and early 90s the UK was the number one place for creativity and gaems creation, we owned the industry. But now, with the moeny to be made multiplied 100 fold, we've dropped to 5th place, soon to be overtaken again, as the rest of the world takes control of an industry we were the forefathers of.
frazzerr on 9 Feb '12 said:
The UK Film Industry get a tax break for the Government even though video games outsell films in the UK. The Video game industry in the UK is bigger than our film industry yet the film industry get a break and game companies don't ...
toaplan on 9 Feb '12 said:
Could've been a contender... Well, Canada is supposed to be a nice place to live in - like a European version of the U.S. So pack those bags and play the lumberjack song...
frazzerr on 9 Feb '12 said:
This has bugged me for ages since the stupid Tory's scrapped the Tax Break as a designer it's worrying as I wanted to stay in the UK after competing University but now the chances are a'll need to move to either America or Canada since the EU are going to trample all over the top of us with their stupid ban on tax breaks
....
Megatrons_Fury on 9 Feb '12 said:
Just because one industry gets a tax break is a weak as hell argument that another one that you like more or percieve as being more important should also get one, i personally think its unfair that that industry gets one as well, film studios invented poor decision making and now the games industry is following suit.
To the guy who mentioned something about games costing less and taking longer etc etc etc, yeah you make some fair points apart from the fact that games like angry birds, bejewelled and peggle cost pennies to make and got back millons so what you say has merit but in the context of the matter being discussed is both non relevant and completely wrong. You mention the 80's being a prime time for development and as i said in my original post thats complete fact however it can still be done today, indie development proves it and with IOS around the scene has started to come back again, the so called triple A games which can suck my arse to begin with as they have lead to the choke pint in the games industry anyway only cost a fortune because of outside things like ADVERTISING spends or paying for the rights to produce a certain title, buying name rights etc, the sheer amont of money spent on internet, tv, mag and cinema advertising stuff like COD or FIFA is more than most studios budget for a new IP and COD isnt the only franchise that wastes money such as this.
To say that games companies deserve special treatment is wrong, its not a personal opinion its flat out completely wrong just like the film industry etc etc, theres more than enough money at some of these companies but the problem is most of them floated and have share holders, the second you do that you allow you long term strategy to be determined by faceless suits who only want a profit share return, considering that i talk about these kind of things with people who are actually employed by several leading developers in this country on what seems a weekly basis and that they in turn agree with me means i know what im talking about.
If you want to make games you go where the jobs are, if any of you were to actually leave your town you would kow that places like canada are stunning and to be quite frank given the choice i know where i would choose to live and work. Maybe one day the scene will return here but i doubt it, right now this countries money is mostly made through business transactions going through the city of london and travel and tourism. Videogames are a very low priority for the people in charge and rightly so, as i said before people will always make games no matter whats going on, for a time britain ruled the roost and after that and even before it japan held all the power now scandenavian countries and north america/ canada are where its at. If you want to be a part of it move if you dont want to be a part of it but love videogames then theres absolutely no difference to you or your life.
For those of you who are concerned about the jobs situation in this country then everyone is feeling the pinch however there are more and more indie developers setting up every week (the real heart and soul of the games industry) and most are made up of very talented folk who made a name at larger studios, new start up business grants and low interest loans are available to those who wish to do the same.
Im tired of this subject, argue amongst yourselves if you have to show ignorance
nathar on 9 Feb '12 said:
I take your point, and I think you are right, every industry would benefit from a tax break and singling one out seems a bit unfair. On the other hand, a country that supports and nurtures the creative arts sounds like a country i'd like to live in.
If you can provide any evidence at all of this (that more indie devs are setting up than are closing down or moving), I will completely change my mind and agree with your point of view. I would imagine getting a small low interest loan from the bank to start up a business, especially for something like a games developer, would be nigh on impossible in the current financial climate
jm3811 on 9 Feb '12 said:
First of all taxes are good for the economy, and I wish I paid more taxes: I would be richer. Poor Adele who nearly cried when she had to pay 4 million quid from her album... bitch.
Secondly most UK talents come from abroad simply because English spoken opens many doors.
Finally I will eventually leave UK because the weather is crap, the social welfare is abominable, and the worst of all is the food (unless you live nearby an Indian restaurant).
dangermou5e on 9 Feb '12 said:
Jog on then son! Oh and make sure you close the door on your way out.
Beetle Bum on 10 Feb '12 said:
stop saying this and that and because its like this the way its is. man! people can get so arrogant and ignorant and to overly chavinistic.
theres talent all over the world not just England! arrrgg!!!!!! arrogance!!!! ignorance!!!!
and stop making excuses.
and no fish and chips wern't made by an english man. and the english football team is just dissapointing thats all. no excuses to defend yourselfs just accept it. arggg!!!!! the arrogance!!!!!
lol.