The decision not to include a hard drive as standard with every 360 was a "mistake" by Microsoft, Bourne Conspiracy's lead game designer has told us.
The Core and Arcade versions of the Xbox 360 come without hard drives, meaning developers have to make sure their games can work without a HDD to cater for those users. But this restricts their freedoms with hard drive use, Rory McGuire explained.
"In retrospect I wish Microsoft had made the choice to have [mandatory] hard drives like Sony did with the PS3," he said.
"They did it with the original Xbox. I'm not sure why they decided to not require a hard drive on the 360. From what I understand they don't move many [Core/Arcade] units," added McGuire.
"Developers certainly benefit [from a hard drive]," he went on to explain, adding: "if you have a hard drive, the whole game loads faster. Obviously you'll be facing a short install time, but the developer benefits from it and you definitely benefit from it as a player.
"So I think that was one of the mistakes that Microsoft made with the 360," added McGuire.
IMO releasing the whole bloody machine was a mistake. It was broken and just generally a sub-par console. Just my opinion anyway...apart from it being broken, thats fact. When I used to work in a a game store, they would come back faulty every day. One day we had 8 consoles returned, and it about was the same all over the chain.
Woo, another thread quickly turned into an excuse to bad mouth the 360.
It was rushed out, that's no secret. It had issues, that's no secret. We've all had to send at least one back. We don't need to cover the same ground here.
My 20Gb drive is barely half full, but then I don't download movies or have any Originals yet. I think with the amount of stuff they expect you to download now, a bigger hard drive would be much more useful. A price drop in the 120Gb one would be good too.
But then since Nintendo seems to think that 512Mb is enough and you should delete and re-download everything we should all be thankful for what we have
I'm quite lucky in that I have an Elite, so I have a bottomless pit....but they really need to drop the price of the 120Gb hard-drive, with all the new stuff that's available to download - 20Gb isn't nearly enough and, for some at least, 40Gb wouldn't be.
If anything, Microsoft should be offering a reduced price on the 120Gb hard-drive to those that purchased the 360 at launch - be it core or premium.
Just make it HDD only, and if it's any good people will buy a hard drive for their 360, it's that simple.
People don't like to be forced to buy.
That depends - Nintendo released a few games that required the N64 expansion pack, and they were popular enough. All depends on how big those HDDs are really. If a 20 gig was 15-20 quid, well, that's cheaper than a memory card then...
I'd prefer to see a HDD add-on that stacks with my 20 gig one. I don't want to replace the current one with a 120 gig one, and then have the ballache of transfering data and then to be left with a 20 gig paper weight. These people are MICROSOFT FFS, surely they can do something right with regards to this sort of thing...
/facepalms
Cripes, what have I just said? <pokes at shoddy Vista product>
Of course it was a mistake. I was saying this to my mate the other night. We were discussing the merits of PC gaming vs Console gaming. one point I mentioned was that Everyone on ABL has a headset (just about) but not everyone on the PC has one (to balance this out, the point was made by both parties that using the keyboard to chat is just better anyway)
I said that everyone on XBL had a headset, because I fou8nd it extremely unlikely that anyone would buy the core system, then pay Ł60 for a 20gig hard drive, then buy a headset and a month's worth of live.
Your guys seems to be overlooking the fact that there are a huge number of amazing games on the 360 that work perfectly fine without a HDD. Yes the PS3 does had a built-in hard drive but the majority of multiplatform games are better on the 360. Look at Devil May Cry 4. You have to wait 20mins for the game to install on the PS3 but the loading times are only slighty faster (by a couple of seconds at the most) than the 360 version. I know because I bought both versions of the game to help me decide which one to keep. I did the same thing with Burnout Paradise and the loading times are alot longer on the PS3 version but I decided to go with PS3 version rather than the 360 one because the framerate and colours were better on the PS3. Anyway - People need to stop buying into the Sony hype machine, stop listening to developer BS and look at the facts. With good programming, good compression and careful placement of the data on the dvd, the 360 is not hindered by the lack of a hdd. I am not a fanboy, i am just fed up of people not doing their homework.
Your guys seems to be overlooking the fact that there are a huge number of amazing games on the 360 that work perfectly fine without a HDD. Yes the PS3 does had a built-in hard drive but the majority of multiplatform games are better on the 360. Look at Devil May Cry 4. You have to wait 20mins for the game to install on the PS3 but the loading times are only slighty faster (by a couple of seconds at the most) than the 360 version. I know because I bought both versions of the game to help me decide which one to keep. I did the same thing with Burnout Paradise and the loading times are alot longer on the PS3 version but I decided to go with PS3 version rather than the 360 one because the framerate and colours were better on the PS3. Anyway - People need to stop buying into the Sony hype machine, stop listening to developer BS and look at the facts. With good programming, good compression and careful placement of the data on the dvd, the 360 is not hindered by the lack of a hdd. I am not a fanboy, i am just fed up of people not doing their homework.
Can't argue with you on that point. I guess it's all a matter of what you want from your console. For all the people that like the idea of the movie download service or the Xbox Classics (which is a great idea - and I strongly urge anyone who hasn't played Ninja Gaiden to download it) they will need a hard-drive.
Having said that, I think the Arcade package is a cracking deal - you get a very low cost console with a memory card that will hold pretty much any save-game you throw at it.....I could probably get by with one of those, my hard-drive (outside of game-saves) is only really used to download demos, my main motivation for the Elite was the HDMI port.
those of you saying the HDD isn't big enough, whilst I agree with you in one sense, I do have to wonder what you're keeping on it. I have about 3 gigs of space left on mine, and thats with about 60 XBLA games, an Xbox Original, Shivering Isles for Oblivion, all the GRAW and GRAW 2 add-on packs, the R6:Vegas players pack, and more besides.
I think people forget that once you've bought something, you can always download it again whenevr you like. Yes, so that means you have to spend a bit of time downloading it again. But come *on*. Its no so bad. At least you don't need to install crap.
Still, it *was* a mistake not to include a HDD as standard. But that said, one of my friends bought a core system as he's not on the internet, and its absolutely perfect for his needs- he'd have no reason to use the HDD.
lets be honest, the core system is aimed at the wii market, that's why it is so much cheaper. i doubt many people that own the core system would be interested in these types of games or have already added a hard disk.
anyway, how can it be a mistake when you can play quite a few good games on the 360 already without the need for a hard disk. if devs are so keen to push the boundaries that require a decent spec of kit they should solely develop on PC's.
"We're calming down our backwards compatibility initative because we want you to have to buy the games through us instead of being able to get the originals somewhere else and simply use them."
MS should allow people to upgrade their HDDs themselves like you can do on the PS3. On the PS3 you can buy a cheap 120gb 2.5 hard drive (the same size that is in the 360)for under Ł50 and very easily swap the drives. Or allow you to connect an external hard drive to 360 and use that to store stuff. All they would have to do it make the data encrypted in some way so you could copy it or use another machine. Or link the data to the gametag. MS are being very greedy for charging so much for their 120gb hdd.
Your guys seems to be overlooking the fact that there are a huge number of amazing games on the 360 that work perfectly fine without a HDD. Yes the PS3 does had a built-in hard drive but the majority of multiplatform games are better on the 360. Look at Devil May Cry 4. You have to wait 20mins for the game to install on the PS3 but the loading times are only slighty faster (by a couple of seconds at the most) than the 360 version. I know because I bought both versions of the game to help me decide which one to keep. I did the same thing with Burnout Paradise and the loading times are alot longer on the PS3 version but I decided to go with PS3 version rather than the 360 one because the framerate and colours were better on the PS3. Anyway - People need to stop buying into the Sony hype machine, stop listening to developer BS and look at the facts. With good programming, good compression and careful placement of the data on the dvd, the 360 is not hindered by the lack of a hdd. I am not a fanboy, i am just fed up of people not doing their homework.
Many valid points are discussed here, no doubt they will be lost on the masses who seem to think...
"XBOTS! HA HA. UR s**t. PS3 RULEZ AN U NO IT. MGS/FF/LGP - TDAT IZ DA s**t DAT WILL DESTROY U AND ALL XBOTS! HA HA HA HA HA"
No HDD for 360 mistake? Yes. Good games for 360? Yes.
But could we of seen these great games have more features that on a HDD can offer? Yes I think we would have. HDD is not just about installing games so they load quicker but things like:
*You could have a game where if the player deforms the landscape the game could save this information and the same deformations can appear next the player plays that level.
*Racing games with really good track editors, where you could import your own images for bill boards and track designs.
These kind of things just cant be done with a memory card. These things can be done on the 360 atm, but the dev has to ask microsoft if they can make a game that only works if there is a HDD attached.
As for the size, 20gig is way too little. I used to play FFXI on my 360 but with thats like 10gig HDD space gone. 30 XBL games, and things like Halo 2 & PGR downloaded tracks and I had no space left. Then again I've upgraded to HDD inside my PS3 to a 160gig as I found I only had 8gig left and that wont be enough for up comming games like LBP and stuff like Home.
if you are an avid gamer then yeah,having no HDD on your 360 is dumb as hell,but not everyone is a massive gamer,and just plays a few games a year..and with it being called core,then people know what to expect...if you want the HDD,just get the premium.
i dont think it was that much of a mistake,MS could(and did)advertise that they were in the same price range as the nintendo Wii
i just wish sony would calm down and make up their minds what ps3 they want out there in the markets...40gig,60 gig,80gig..talk of 120gig
"We're calming down our backwards compatibility initative because we want you to have to buy the games through us instead of being able to get the originals somewhere else and simply use them."
The software used to run supported xbox games (disc) is the same used to run xbox classics, Haven't you noticed that the only games released are already supported xbox games DOH Future releases will only be from the supported list unless they update the list
Microsoft made very obvious mistakes with the 360 hardware. It was rushed out, and I don't think anyone can really deny this. On this level, the PS3 is simply a better machine... However, the 360 been out for two years now, we're very wise to its flaws, it's time to sing a different tune. The same goes for those who constantly bitch about the PS3...
The lack of a HDD is problematic, sure, but is it absolutely necessary? I'm not totally convinced its 100% needed for console games. I think developers have just got too comfy, because they treat consoles like PCs (and this is a problem across the board, see dev comments re. the Wii and PS3). There are ways round it, but it seems the days of deft programming are long gone (I'm still amazed what developers got out the PS1 and PS2 late in its life).
However, Microsoft does seem to have shot itself in the foot. The company are extremely keen to push DLC, and now Xbox originals and movie downloads. With the standard 20GB hard drive capable of getting filled up very quickly with only a couple of each, I think it is only a matter of time before all X360's come with a larger hard drive as standard. On the other hand, Microsoft want us to splash out on the ridiculously overpriced 120Gb hard drive.
As for me, my 360's hard drive still has around 14GB left. I don't really download anything apart from the occasional demo now and then, and the only thing I plan on downloading in the near future is the Mass effect DLC.
"We're calming down our backwards compatibility initative because we want you to have to buy the games through us instead of being able to get the originals somewhere else and simply use them."
The software used to run supported xbox games (disc) is the same used to run xbox classics, Haven't you noticed that the only games released are already supported xbox games DOH Future releases will only be from the supported list unless they update the list
Good, but this is Microsoft we're talking about. They're clearly winding down backwards compatibility in favour of getting people to buy games again.
"We're calming down our backwards compatibility initative because we want you to have to buy the games through us instead of being able to get the originals somewhere else and simply use them."
Fanboy pish-posh. All the downloadable Xbox original titles are already backward compatible. They were made available so people who can't find the disks can play the classics.
The HDD really helped DMC4 didn't it? 20 minutes to install for 1 or 2 seconds faster load times? Pfft.
The truth is that the BlueRay drive in the PS3 is a first gen drive. Lots of space, but compared to the current gen dvd drives, it's very slow. The PS3 NEEDS a HDD because if it didn't have one, the games would indeed take forever to load.
"We're calming down our backwards compatibility initative because we want you to have to buy the games through us instead of being able to get the originals somewhere else and simply use them."
Fanboy pish-posh. All the downloadable Xbox original titles are already backward compatible. They were made available so people who can't find the disks can play the classics.
The HDD really helped DMC4 didn't it? 20 minutes to install for 1 or 2 seconds faster load times? Pfft.
The truth is that the BlueRay drive in the PS3 is a first gen drive. Lots of space, but compared to the current gen dvd drives, it's very slow. The PS3 NEEDS a HDD because if it didn't have one, the games would indeed take forever to load.
Exactly. The Xbox Classics is a great idea for the games that are genuinely hard to find - Psychonauts is not available elsewhere at the same price....it's pretty rare....and there are other good titles there - like Ninja Gaiden, as I mentioned in an earlier post.
I know what you mean; they can be found cheaper - if you try....but, having them there to download when you feel like it, instead of hunting them out, is nice. There are a couple I already have, some I totally missed (Psyconauts the main example)
It's simple - you can choose to download, or buy the disks - the 360's backward compatability is great.
Just make it HDD only, and if it's any good people will buy a hard drive for their 360, it's that simple.
People don't like to be forced to buy.
Nobody's being forced to buy the game in the first place, are they?
But really, so what if a few games will only work if you have a Hard Drive? And Microsoft were smart to release a version aimed at people without an HD-TV and Broadband, who wants to buy a new toy and know they can only use some of it's features? Now if Microsoft would drop the 20gig to Ł30 and the 120 to Ł50 we'd all be happy.
here this comment is stupid the wii doesnt have a hard drive and all those games load fine.eg twilight princess,galaxy, prime 3, battalion wars and so on. my point i dont think a hard drive can really improve a game.
No blu-ray. no build-in HDD. no 1080p no wireless internet. no free online service no free RROD console. actually thinking you can win againts Sony in the gaming world
No blu-ray. no build-in HDD. no 1080p no wireless internet. no free online service no free RROD console. actually thinking you can win againts Sony in the gaming world
all big mistakes.
You forgot to add "no decent exclusive games for the first 18 months"...
Releasing it without a hard drive was a mistake. As big as a mistake as releasing the PS3 without any good games, they'll fix that in the summer though ;^). I think the mistake Nintendo made is simply called the Wii. Sure old people like it but their attach rate is small and the console is starting to feel like a party favor. I'm curious what next gen specs will be for all three. Will MS blow it with a small proprietary hard drive that won't even interchange with the 360s? Will Sony re-invent the wheel yet again with their over-rated processor that takes years for developers to get used to? Will the Wii be just the same with a slightly more powerful processor or will they take a huge risk on the controller as well this next time? Ahh hell who cares.
They can always make it optional. If you don't have a Hard drive, then you can carry on playing as you were. If you do, cool, caches and the like can be used. I can understand why devs dislike consoles without hard drives, but not every one who buys a console is in to the whole, Xbox Live, downloading demos sort of thing. It's called choice.
No blu-ray. no build-in HDD. no 1080p no wireless internet. no free online service no free RROD console. actually thinking you can win againts Sony in the gaming world
all big mistakes.
You don't need blu-ray, or a hard drive, or wireless, the online service is only paid for if you want multi-player or downloads, and I've not come across any RROD yet. So up yours,
No blu-ray. no build-in HDD. no 1080p no wireless internet. no free online service no free RROD console. actually thinking you can win againts Sony in the gaming world
all big mistakes.
doesnt need blu ray, can add wireless if you want it but who would as it is so slow, online service is free unless you want extra, my console still works so i obviously missed out, does do 1080p and hard drives can be added or buy a premium or elite console!!!
Yes it was a stupid idea not to have HDD as standard. The 20gb is also shocking for people who like to dl XBox originals or the films. & then asking them to shell out Ł120ish for a 120gb HDD is just daylight robbery. The HDD should be much cheaper. I'd buy one if it was then MS could get more money out of me for the DL services.
But they are too stupid to realise this & charge a ridiculous amount for them.
<snip utter tripe> actually thinking you can win againts Sony in the gaming world
You are aware that Nintendo, NOT Sony have done more for consoles than anyone else. Contrary to popular belief, Sony are not the Messiah of the gaming world
MS should allow people to upgrade their HDDs themselves like you can do on the PS3. On the PS3 you can buy a cheap 120gb 2.5 hard drive (the same size that is in the 360)for under Ł50 and very easily swap the drives. Or allow you to connect an external hard drive to 360 and use that to store stuff. All they would have to do it make the data encrypted in some way so you could copy it or use another machine. Or link the data to the gametag. MS are being very greedy for charging so much for their 120gb hdd.
acording to the set up book you can connect extra storage, such as 360 memory cards and USB-bases storage devices. So I guess if you could find a HD thats either USB based or conects via a USB you can do the same as the PS3. I'm happy with my 20gb at the mo though. As I have no plans to download a load of games of live, and will not bother paying to watch a movie 1 or 2 times, when I can go and buy the DVD, and watch it when ever I like.
<snip utter tripe> actually thinking you can win againts Sony in the gaming world
You are aware that Nintendo, NOT Sony have done more for consoles than anyone else. Contrary to popular belief, Sony are not the Messiah of the gaming world
Ahem... Don't forget Sega!! They did a lot for consoles too, remember they shaped the gaming licensing still used to this day. Nintendo did it in a more communist way
And for the computing world don't forget the Amiga, MAC or Atari ST. A lot of things for those machines are being enjoyed today by PC owners. Plug and play anyone?
I agree that Nintendo has done more for gaming than anyone if you check back at what they've introduced, controllers, etc.
Anyway back on topic Microsoft should have done what they did with the original Xbox. Just release one model that has all you need inside it. If gamers needed more space buy a 500GB USB drive and stick it on one of the ports.
Multiple models just creates confusion not only from the consumer end but for devs who want their games to be played by as wide an audience as possible.
No blu-ray. no build-in HDD. no 1080p no wireless internet. no free online service no free RROD console. actually thinking you can win againts Sony in the gaming world
all big mistakes.
/Bites the fanboy bait
- Blu-Ray isn't needed for games unless you want pre-rendered FMV's, which shouldn't be needed this gen as the graphics are by far good enough to use the in-game engine for cutscene's. Blu-Ray also has a much slower read speed than a DVD drive which is why you are starting to see 5GB HDD install's. - It's all about choice. Yes, HDD's as standard would have benefitted some games but it would have knocked the console price up. - Yet again, all about choice. Why should people be forced to pay for something more than 60% of people most likley won't use? - It's all about quality. No one can argue that PSN is anywhere near LIVE's quality. - Yes, huge mistake from MS for letting this issue slip through and they;ve paid for it. Thankfully the result is us having a 3 year warrenty meaning I'm laughing unlike last gen where I went through 3 PS2's due to laser issues. - Hmmm, Sony are in last place atm... Looks like MS and Nintendo are laughing right now...
MS should allow people to upgrade their HDDs themselves like you can do on the PS3. On the PS3 you can buy a cheap 120gb 2.5 hard drive (the same size that is in the 360)for under Ł50 and very easily swap the drives. Or allow you to connect an external hard drive to 360 and use that to store stuff. All they would have to do it make the data encrypted in some way so you could copy it or use another machine. Or link the data to the gametag. MS are being very greedy for charging so much for their 120gb hdd.
acording to the set up book you can connect extra storage, such as 360 memory cards and USB-bases storage devices. So I guess if you could find a HD thats either USB based or conects via a USB you can do the same as the PS3. I'm happy with my 20gb at the mo though. As I have no plans to download a load of games of live, and will not bother paying to watch a movie 1 or 2 times, when I can go and buy the DVD, and watch it when ever I like.
I've tried, the firmware wont let you hook up an external Hard drive, but flash based drives like memory cards and sticks work fine, I've got an 8gb usb flash drive connected to mine. Trouble is though, you can't run any video from them, just music and pictures.
ha ha ha dont make me laugh, i have devil may cry 4 on the ps3 an the install time is 5mins i timed the install so i dont know where 20mins come from, a ludicrous remake with a ludicrous crapbox 360
MS should allow people to upgrade their HDDs themselves like you can do on the PS3. On the PS3 you can buy a cheap 120gb 2.5 hard drive (the same size that is in the 360)for under Ł50 and very easily swap the drives. Or allow you to connect an external hard drive to 360 and use that to store stuff. All they would have to do it make the data encrypted in some way so you could copy it or use another machine. Or link the data to the gametag. MS are being very greedy for charging so much for their 120gb hdd.
acording to the set up book you can connect extra storage, such as 360 memory cards and USB-bases storage devices. So I guess if you could find a HD thats either USB based or conects via a USB you can do the same as the PS3. I'm happy with my 20gb at the mo though. As I have no plans to download a load of games of live, and will not bother paying to watch a movie 1 or 2 times, when I can go and buy the DVD, and watch it when ever I like.
I've tried, the firmware wont let you hook up an external Hard drive, but flash based drives like memory cards and sticks work fine, I've got an 8gb usb flash drive connected to mine. Trouble is though, you can't run any video from them, just music and pictures.
If it's just a firmware thing then theres nothing stoping MS from changing that to let users have a larger HD via the USB ports. are the flash drives ok for games, or just music/pictures. I would have thought you could run video from them seeing I can play videos from my MP3 player (if I get the formating right)
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