Microsoft has kicked off a controversial crackdown on 'gay' gamertags on Xbox Live, sparking uproar across the internet.
It started last week when Xbox Live user 'theGAYERgamer' reported that he'd had his gamertag banned, and been ordered to change it to something else.
"I talked to a supervisor [at Xbox Live], Roxy, who told me that she didn't personally find the fact that my gamer tag had gay in the name offensive, but that the greater Xbox community did, so I would have to change it," he told The Consumerist.
Hilariously, the crackdown has also extended beyond actual gay gamertags: UK Xbox Live user Richard Gaywood was banned after his tag, of the same name, was said to break XBL policy. We bet he got bullied at school.
After a barrage of complaints from the Gay and Lesbian Internet Alliance, Xbox Live team member Stephen Toulouse tried to explain the situation:
"We recieved a complaint on the Gamertag and determined that it did indeed contain sexual innuendo," he wrote on his blog.
"Now granted, there could be an argument that the text is not pejorative to homosexuality and should therefore be allowed. But there is no context to explain that. Gamertags are visible to everyone and it would be hard for me to defend to a parent of a young child who saw it that the name did not contain content of a sexual nature.
"We view these situations objectively during our review under the terms of use. To answer the question another way, yes 'TheStraighterGamer or 'TheHeterosexualgamer' would have gotten the same treatment and would have been found to be in violation and forced to be changed. We've actually done that to tags like that before."
We're off to change our MansUK tag before Microsoft gets the wrong idea...
Oooh controversial. As long as it doesn't contain profanity or directly sexually provocative language then I see no reason why these user names shouldn't be allowed. So many terms or phrases could fall under what MS are saying.
Of course, MS could argue that they are protecting users from homophobic abuse, but it is still essentially pandering to bigotry.
Easy enough to check. Create a load of accounts with the words "hetero" and "straight" in them and see how long it takes them to get banned. Or do the same thing with "black" and "white".
It'll never work.
But then Gaywood is a rather unfortunate surname at the best of times. Half of it you could get away with, but both words? Just...no. There's no way I'd have used it as my online handle. Pun not intended.
I can see where there coming from, but there are worse names that come to mind that arn't to do with or contain gay in them, however what I think is more worse that is some of the clan tags people have and use the 4 or so extra letters to add to their otherwise probably harmless names.
As usual, with this kind of thing, they've started with the most ridiculous non-offense instead of addressing some of the more obvious but harder to rectify problems.
I got banned for TBAG TERROR at the start of the year and they couldnt explain why, MS are dicks when it comes to things like this and need to be sensible with regard to policing this!
Ok, so a gamertag containing the word "gay" is more offensive than the ludicrous amount of homophobic and racist trash talk over live? It must be as microsoft are doing little to stop this! I rarely use my headset anymore as I find it far too offensive. I report (for all the good it will do) all of the ones I can identify but when so many are doing it it is hard to tell who is responsible. Also from what friends tell me, PSN is even worse!
It's a shame they don't monitor some of the in game chatter and ban some of the c**ks that play online.
Another thing that'd be great is if they could somehow ban accounts where kids play GTA IV online. That's not gonna happen tho sadly.
I'm with you on that one. Add me, I'm not a c**k
But then I guess when most of your userbase is annoying teenagers (and f*cking prejudiced Americans) then they'd end up with like 10 people left with accounts if they banned them all.
I'd like it if maybe you could do a game search with an age filter...(that make sense??), so you enter your age on there originally with yuor gamer tag... not sure how you'd make that accurate tho as obviously people could lie... and then anyway you could say "yep COD4 game please, only gamers above spermatazoa age"
Microsoft are leaving themselves wide open to legitimate criticism here. Fear of a word like 'gay' is absolutely ridiculous and taking major steps like this is a waste of everyone's time. As a gay gamer, I'm much more concerned at the homophobic ABUSE I receive when I play online. Microsoft... show you're willing to do something just as wide ranging about THAT problem and I'll take you seriously.
Unfortunately if you give people an anonymous identity, like a gamer-tag, then all the bile they can muster is likely to come out. And how can you police it? Some of the rubbish on Live & I’m sure PSN is such drivel it does drive you up the wall but if some homophobic moron anonymously insults you over the internet it hardly makes them a “big man” does it? Easier said than done but ignore the t**ts.
There are measures in place to stop homophobes and racists already, you report them, people seem to be forgetting that.
I got an American child banned for being Anti-Semitic, (Watching too much South Park, that show really is s**t)
I've also reported thousands of those hillbillies and black people who constantly ruin matches on Rainbow Six: Vegas with their racist quarreling.
It's not always easy if you can't indentify who's talking. GTA IV for example doesn't show who's talking when, RS:V2 does though, which is a good thing.
There was some idiot child on their last night (American, but I've heard similar from English kids) throwing abuse around about 'n****r jews' and stuff like that. I'm not usually one to get wound up at stuff like that, but when it's incessant, inane rubbish like that throughout the entire match, it really p**ses me off.
As an aside, does anyone know if there's a way to mute individuals on GTA ? I seem to recall finding a way to do it whilst playing RS:V2 once, but it'd be useful to know how to do it elsewhere.....
Microsoft are leaving themselves wide open to legitimate criticism here. Fear of a word like 'gay' is absolutely ridiculous and taking major steps like this is a waste of everyone's time. As a gay gamer, I'm much more concerned at the homophobic ABUSE I receive when I play online. Microsoft... show you're willing to do something just as wide ranging about THAT problem and I'll take you seriously.
Everyone gets abuse on xbox live,for being scottish,british,black,american,etc etc.
Your mother does this etc etc Go brush your teeth you british f**k,up yours you fat yank etc etc
Then you got your boosters,your rank whores,achievement whores,thats xbox live for you.
If it wasnt for the love of videogames,you would not waste ur time.
There are measures in place to stop homophobes and racists already, you report them, people seem to be forgetting that.
I got an American child banned for being Anti-Semitic, (Watching too much South Park, that show really is s**t)
I've also reported thousands of those hillbillies and black people who constantly ruin matches on Rainbow Six: Vegas with their racist quarreling.
It's not always easy if you can't indentify who's talking. GTA IV for example doesn't show who's talking when, RS:V2 does though, which is a good thing.
There was some idiot child on their last night (American, but I've heard similar from English kids) throwing abuse around about 'n****r jews' and stuff like that. I'm not usually one to get wound up at stuff like that, but when it's incessant, inane rubbish like that throughout the entire match, it really p**ses me off.
As an aside, does anyone know if there's a way to mute individuals on GTA ? I seem to recall finding a way to do it whilst playing RS:V2 once, but it'd be useful to know how to do it elsewhere.....
I think you find the gamertag in recent players list,then mute them from there i think.
It would be nice if Microsoft gave more feedback on what they are actually doing to ban the people shouting out the racist/homophobic abuse. You can file a complaint but you never know if anything is done about it... On the issue of banning the 'offensive' gamertags, obviously some of these 'gay' tags couldn't really be considered offensive but Microsoft as a company has to do something about it if someone complains. Funnily enough the worst incident of abuse I've ever heard on Xbox Live was in a game of UNO.. A gay guy and a black guy (both American btw) were slinging very strong abuse back and forth. I reported both of them, but doubt anything was done..
There are measures in place to stop homophobes and racists already, you report them, people seem to be forgetting that.
I got an American child banned for being Anti-Semitic, (Watching too much South Park, that show really is s**t)
I've also reported thousands of those hillbillies and black people who constantly ruin matches on Rainbow Six: Vegas with their racist quarreling.
It's not always easy if you can't indentify who's talking. GTA IV for example doesn't show who's talking when, RS:V2 does though, which is a good thing.
There was some idiot child on their last night (American, but I've heard similar from English kids) throwing abuse around about 'n****r jews' and stuff like that. I'm not usually one to get wound up at stuff like that, but when it's incessant, inane rubbish like that throughout the entire match, it really p**ses me off.
As an aside, does anyone know if there's a way to mute individuals on GTA ? I seem to recall finding a way to do it whilst playing RS:V2 once, but it'd be useful to know how to do it elsewhere.....
I luv the way the 'n' word is censored here but jew is acceptable (Jew is deemed offensive to many jewish people)!
Also I was on COD4 a couple of weeks ago and there was an idiot in the room called whiteboykiller! Thats ok is it then MS? What would of happened if it was blackboykiller?
Some cultures and religions get easily offended by homosexuality and I guess Microsoft doesn't want to offend or lose those customers.
Are there only 2 banned? Or more?
I personally would ban all the 'xoMasterCHiEf007x2006x'
There all 12 year old americans with not a single grain originality in them.
I hate cheesy Gamertags and its not often that a see one I like either.
I agree with him, microsoft are looking at the bigger picture, like all companies do, I remember that guy who made that video on youtube about the abuse he got, his GT was: XXXGAYXXX and had a pink spartan, by putting gay in their gamertag, they are just asking for abuse
as for cheesy gamertags with XoX XoX or XX XX in them should be banned immediately
Perhaps they should ban all xbox's that have halo 3 played on them and recall every copy of h3 on account of that game was gay.
I distinctly don't remember any incidents of Master Chief man-love in that game, maybe I was looking the other way. But seriously, does anyone over the age of 12 use the word 'gay' as general term for rubbish anymore?
This is ridiculous, in the English language so many words have double meanings; "gay" is a good example. It's still occasionally used for, "joyous" albeit not by many. I can think of a dozen "innuendo" related words that can carry a different meaning. I wonder if anyone's got away with Dick Tracy, or would that count as a sexual intention?
looks like ill have to change my deeeznutz77 gamertag soon then haha
But seriously if they really wanna cut down on offensive material on live they should hear all the teenage americans on GTA. Everynight I go onto play some multiplayer at about 11pm and its always full of american 'kids' calling each other 'fa**ot', 'ni**er' and stuff like that.
For that matter wheres all the europeans on GTA all I ever hear are sceptics....?
There are measures in place to stop homophobes and racists already, you report them, people seem to be forgetting that.
I got an American child banned for being Anti-Semitic, (Watching too much South Park, that show really is s**t)
I've also reported thousands of those hillbillies and black people who constantly ruin matches on Rainbow Six: Vegas with their racist quarreling.
It's not always easy if you can't indentify who's talking. GTA IV for example doesn't show who's talking when, RS:V2 does though, which is a good thing.
There was some idiot child on their last night (American, but I've heard similar from English kids) throwing abuse around about 'n****r jews' and stuff like that. I'm not usually one to get wound up at stuff like that, but when it's incessant, inane rubbish like that throughout the entire match, it really p**ses me off.
As an aside, does anyone know if there's a way to mute individuals on GTA ? I seem to recall finding a way to do it whilst playing RS:V2 once, but it'd be useful to know how to do it elsewhere.....
I luv the way the 'n' word is censored here but jew is acceptable (Jew is deemed offensive to many jewish people)!
That's friggin ridiculous, how can MS justify that? Only idiots would find it offensive. As for parents being worried about their kids - some people are gay, get over it!
On the other side of things though, I do find it a bit annoying when people shout about their sexuality, or excessively flaunt it. I'm gay, but I don't feel the need to put it any kind of username or tell everyone.
MS need to spend more time sorting out the real abuse. Would it be an invasion of privacy for MS to listen in on people?
Gaymers (lol geddit?) need to realise that Gaymertags are gonna draw unwanted attention to themselves. I saw a video of this dude who had his Gaymertag as xxxGayBoyxxx and got a lot of unprovoked harassment over it. People on his team exited the gayme on his own, teamkilling, etc.. Were he not to establish his sexual orientation on his Gaymertag (gotta stop the puns) he wouldn't be getting all this needless abuse.
It's not a porn site. It's an online gaming service. We don't need to know if you're gay, straight, white, black, British, Asian, whatever. What really matters is that I kill you with my Chainsaw on Gears of War. And as long as you keep conversation civil and gameplay competitive I won't mute/block/report you. End of.
This isn't just Microsoft trawling through a database of gamertags all day looking for keywords, this is because they have received 10 complaints for said individual under the 'offensive gamertag' option. These complaints come from fellow Xbox Live users, and Microsoft then look into it before making a decision.
Honestly, while they may be "Gay and Proud", the vast majority of "Dumb and Uneducated" folk trolling Xbox Live will use it as a weapon. It's really saving the people a lot of abuse in the long-run.
Rather than questioning Microsofts methods - perhaps we should question why people are offended enough by 'GAYgamer' enough to file a complaint. I think the narrow-mindedness falls onto the shoulders of the end-user.
Plus, stop complaining - you're getting a gamertag chance which would cost me Ł10!
I kid you not, me and a friend were playing COD4 the other day, when some Scottish 12 year old came in, shouting his mouth off about our mothers, how we were chavs (when both of us play guitar in the same metal band) and how we were gay and were 'Limeys'. So instantly, he abused our mothers when he had no clue if they were alive or not, he had no clue of what we listen to be insisted we were chavs, and had no clue we're both taken guys. And what the hell was the 'Limey' crack about?! That's an American thing! It's kids like that f****t that should be banned off live. They spoil good games, if you don't like getting pwned, don't play. None of us need this after a hard day working.
It doesn't matter how modern the times are, being gay will ALWAYS be unnatural. No parent is "proud" of their children becoming gay, and even though Americans overreact to almost everything, this is being handled appropriately.
Nothing against the gays here, just don't want my children to turn out that way, but really who honestly does?
I used to have a friend who's surname was Woodc**k... it'd probably get banned from XBL even though it's his genuine surname and is also the name of a bird.
Isn't this just another situation that is being blown out of all proportion? I'm ginger and british. my mother died when i was 5. i chain smoke and drink far too much red bull. Yet everyday someone finds falut at some point with one of the previous details.
I think im adult enough to either: a) Ignore them b) Mute them c) Beat them with a smile and then rape thier cold dead bodies...
If M$ continues along this path, then at some point im sure everyone will be banned as someone somewhere will find something offensive.
It doesn't matter how modern the times are, being gay will ALWAYS be unnatural. No parent is "proud" of their children becoming gay, and even though Americans overreact to almost everything, this is being handled appropriately.
Nothing against the gays here, just don't want my children to turn out that way, but really who honestly does?
Do you realise that you are homophobic? It is as bad as Nazi.
Nothing against the gays here, just don't want my children to turn out that way, but really who honestly does?
If you had a brain larger than the size of an atom then maybe you would realise that what you just wrote was prehistoric, ignorant and above all f*cking stupid...and no im not gay before you say...
nothing against morons here, I just dont want my children to turn out like you, but really who honestly does?
It doesn't matter how modern the times are, being gay will ALWAYS be unnatural. No parent is "proud" of their children becoming gay, and even though Americans overreact to almost everything, this is being handled appropriately.
Nothing against the gays here, just don't want my children to turn out that way, but really who honestly does?
Hear hear. I want to stand up for people's rights to be against things they believe to be wrong. Just because someone's opinion is no longer the accepted norm, does that mean it should be invalid? If people are not discriminated against or treated differently then why does it matter what people believe?
It doesn't matter how modern the times are, being gay will ALWAYS be unnatural. No parent is "proud" of their children becoming gay, and even though Americans overreact to almost everything, this is being handled appropriately.
Nothing against the gays here, just don't want my children to turn out that way, but really who honestly does?
And by saying that, you have confirmed to everyone here that you are, in fact, homophobic. Same as those people who say "I have nothing against queers as long as they don't shove it in my face" - homophobia. What IS unnatural is being prejudiced against someone for something as immaterial as their sexuality. I'm guessing half a century ago you would have considered being black to be unnatural as well, yeah? Or at the very least, that they were of a less deserving skin colour. Cos of course, everyone knows Jesus was white.
And for the record, many many parents are proud of their gay kids for being able to overcome the bigotry and prejudice that is still so prevalent in many places (subtle as it may be) to be able to grow up to be decent, caring people (just like my parents and the parents of my friends). It feels ridiculous that I even need to say something like this.
I don't think you can compare homophobia to racism. You can't choose your race, but you can choose your lifestyle. That said most homophobes are unnecessarily offensive and discriminatory, just like most racists.
I don't think you can compare homophobia to racism. You can't choose your race, but you can choose your lifestyle. That said most homophobes are unnecessarily offensive and discriminatory, just like most racists.
yeah and nor do gay people have a choice whether they are straight or gay, its not a lifestyle choice...
I had just prepared a looooooong argument, but to be honest, it's a waste of time arguing with you lot. You're so quick to start with the swearing, and calling names that instead of an interesting debate, you just finish it for the person. Good day to you.
I don't think you can compare homophobia to racism. You can't choose your race, but you can choose your lifestyle. That said most homophobes are unnecessarily offensive and discriminatory, just like most racists.
yeah and nor do gay people have a choice whether they are straight or gay, its not a lifestyle choice...
Whether you're born gay or not, I'm pretty sure you have a choice whether to sleep with another man or not.
I don't think you can compare homophobia to racism. You can't choose your race, but you can choose your lifestyle. That said most homophobes are unnecessarily offensive and discriminatory, just like most racists.
Nope.
They are born gay. I'm sure if they had a choice before the birth they'd have chosen straight.
It doesn't matter how modern the times are, being gay will ALWAYS be unnatural. No parent is "proud" of their children becoming gay, and even though Americans overreact to almost everything, this is being handled appropriately.
Nothing against the gays here, just don't want my children to turn out that way, but really who honestly does?
And by saying that, you have confirmed to everyone here that you are, in fact, homophobic. Same as those people who say "I have nothing against queers as long as they don't shove it in my face" - homophobia. What IS unnatural is being prejudiced against someone for something as immaterial as their sexuality. I'm guessing half a century ago you would have considered being black to be unnatural as well, yeah? Or at the very least, that they were of a less deserving skin colour. Cos of course, everyone knows Jesus was white.
And for the record, many many parents are proud of their gay kids for being able to overcome the bigotry and prejudice that is still so prevalent in many places (subtle as it may be) to be able to grow up to be decent, caring people (just like my parents and the parents of my friends). It feels ridiculous that I even need to say something like this.
Good points. Have to reply to this. I am not a Christian and half a century ago, I wouldn't have considered black people unnatural. I'm not black, nor am I white. My society developed equality for all people WAYYYYY before half a century ago, so no, I would'nt have thought of them so.
It doesn't matter how modern the times are, being gay will ALWAYS be unnatural. No parent is "proud" of their children becoming gay, and even though Americans overreact to almost everything, this is being handled appropriately.
Nothing against the gays here, just don't want my children to turn out that way, but really who honestly does?
Hear hear. I want to stand up for people's rights to be against things they believe to be wrong. Just because someone's opinion is no longer the accepted norm, does that mean it should be invalid? If people are not discriminated against or treated differently then why does it matter what people believe?
I don't think you can compare homophobia to racism. You can't choose your race, but you can choose your lifestyle. That said most homophobes are unnecessarily offensive and discriminatory, just like most racists.
I can indeed compare homophobia to racism. Both are the irrational hatred of a group as a result of ignorance, lack of education and poor upbringing. I'm not going to get into an argument with you about whether homosexuality occurs from nature or nurture, because that really isn't the issue. Blaming gays for being gay because "it's their choice" displays an astonishing ignorance. So should the same logic be applied to someone because of their religion? If you don't agree with the teachings of Judaism, should all Jewish people be discriminated against because "it's their choice" as they can change to another religion if they so choose?
Also, I take extreme offence to your agreement with BeNdEr91 that you should be allowed to hold your opinion silently, be they politically correct or not. So basically, you're condoning bigotry and prejudice as long as it doesn't affect other people? That's pretty appalling. Sure, if you don't let your personal views affect anyone, then it hardly makes a difference. Then again, does a would-be paedophile playing out sick fantasies in his head while not actually committing them make it right? Hardly. (And yes, I am highly aware of the vast difference between being a silent bigot/racist/homophobe and a potential paedophile. I was merely using this to illustrate my point.)
My society developed equality for all people WAYYYYY before half a century ago, so no, I would'nt have thought of them so.
Um.. Your profile says you're from ****stan. Isn't there quite a prevalent caste system in your society? Racism isn't just based on skin colour you know...
My society developed equality for all people WAYYYYY before half a century ago, so no, I would'nt have thought of them so.
Um.. Your profile says you're from ****stan. Isn't there quite a prevalent caste system in your society? Racism isn't just based on skin colour you know...
Caste system? That's hinduism my friend. Go a little east, into india, you'll find it there. Yes there are poor and rich here. My servants are literally called "helpers". We chat with em', eat with em', clothe them like us. Can this be considered racist?
I suppose that makes sense, and is one of the easier problems to deal with. Though anyone who takes offence to the word gay takes things really too far.
And for soemone called Bender91, you sure are homophobic, and a bit of sod.
It doesn't matter how modern the times are, being gay will ALWAYS be unnatural. No parent is "proud" of their children becoming gay, and even though Americans overreact to almost everything, this is being handled appropriately.
Nothing against the gays here, just don't want my children to turn out that way, but really who honestly does?
And by saying that, you have confirmed to everyone here that you are, in fact, homophobic. Same as those people who say "I have nothing against queers as long as they don't shove it in my face" - homophobia. What IS unnatural is being prejudiced against someone for something as immaterial as their sexuality. I'm guessing half a century ago you would have considered being black to be unnatural as well, yeah? Or at the very least, that they were of a less deserving skin colour. Cos of course, everyone knows Jesus was white.
And for the record, many many parents are proud of their gay kids for being able to overcome the bigotry and prejudice that is still so prevalent in many places (subtle as it may be) to be able to grow up to be decent, caring people (just like my parents and the parents of my friends). It feels ridiculous that I even need to say something like this.
Good points. Have to reply to this. I am not a Christian and half a century ago, I wouldn't have considered black people unnatural. I'm not black, nor am I white. My society developed equality for all people WAYYYYY before half a century ago, so no, I would'nt have thought of them so.
My apologies, I should have specified that this was merely an example used to compound my point. Feel free to insert some other pertinent example here to make my point clearer.
I can indeed compare homophobia to racism. Both are the irrational hatred of a group as a result of ignorance, lack of education and poor upbringing.
One of my close family members and one of my best friends are gay. I get on very well with them both. Almost everyone has views on how life should be lived ideally, why is mine any different? I am against homosexuality purely because it is defined as adultery within my religion. I don't treat gays any differently than I treat the many, many other adulterers that I have to associate with in my life. Why is my view any less valid than the beliefs of anyone else? I agree with your views on racism which is a horrible thing, but I stand by my beliefs.
Blaming gays for being gay because "it's their choice" displays an astonishing ignorance. So should the same logic be applied to someone because of their religion? If you don't agree with the teachings of Judaism, should all Jewish people be discriminated against because "it's their choice" as they can change to another religion if they so choose?
I don't condone discrimination towards anyone because of their lifestyle choices. But I reserve the right to believe that someone elses way of life that they have chosen is wrong. I guess you believe that the way I have chosen to live my life is wrong, the difference is that I respect your right to hold that belief.
Also, I take extreme offence to your agreement with BeNdEr91 that you should be allowed to hold your opinion silently, be they politically correct or not. So basically, you're condoning bigotry and prejudice as long as it doesn't affect other people? That's pretty appalling. Sure, if you don't let your personal views affect anyone, then it hardly makes a difference. Then again, does a would-be paedophile playing out sick fantasies in his head while not actually committing them make it right? Hardly.
Bigotry is the intolerance of differing opinions. I am not condoning intolerance at all. I am condoning the right for people to belief what they want. Prejudice is defined as 'an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.' I have thought long and hard about why I believe what I believe. It is not an uneducated belief. And as I've stated I do not let my personal views affect the way I act towards people, so why are you intolerant of my beliefs? Obviously someone imagining commiting a criminal act is preferable to them doing it, but the Bible tells us that fantasizing about something is the same as doing it.
My society developed equality for all people WAYYYYY before half a century ago, so no, I would'nt have thought of them so.
Um.. Your profile says you're from ****stan. Isn't there quite a prevalent caste system in your society? Racism isn't just based on skin colour you know...
Caste system? That's hinduism my friend. Go a little east, into india, you'll find it there.
Not just Hinduism my friend. And news stories such as these suggest that the caste system is still very-much alive in parts of ****stan. Its hardly the equal society you propound. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article648817.ece
My society developed equality for all people WAYYYYY before half a century ago, so no, I would'nt have thought of them so.
Um.. Your profile says you're from ****stan. Isn't there quite a prevalent caste system in your society? Racism isn't just based on skin colour you know...
Caste system? That's hinduism my friend. Go a little east, into india, you'll find it there. Yes there are poor and rich here. My servants are literally called "helpers". We chat with em', eat with em', clothe them like us. Can this be considered racist?
Actually, I suppose your being Muslim would explain your obvious homophobia, since it is one of the least gay-tolerant religions in the world, with its common practice of whipping or stoning the "offender" to death. So you are hardly one to preach of "equality for all people".
I suppose that makes sense, and is one of the easier problems to deal with. Though anyone who takes offence to the word gay takes things really too far.
And for soemone called Bender91, you sure are homophobic, and a bit of sod.
Sod. Isn't that short for sodomite, as in gay? Why are you using it as an insult? Or should I be flattered?
I know of NO person who is gay in my country, so it's a load of bull when people say that "he's born gay" and that crap.
Forgive me all for even starting this conversation. Please, finish my freedom of speech, and continue with yours, as it's "so important and every person has a right to say how he feels". This is hypocrisy.
I suppose that makes sense, and is one of the easier problems to deal with. Though anyone who takes offence to the word gay takes things really too far.
And for soemone called Bender91, you sure are homophobic, and a bit of sod.
Sod. Isn't that short for sodomite, as in gay? Why are you using it as an insult? Or should I be flattered?
I know of NO person who is gay in my country, so it's a load of bull when people say that "he's born gay" and that crap.
Forgive me all for even starting this conversation. Please, finish my freedom of speech, and continue with yours, as it's "so important and every person has a right to say how he feels". This is hypocrisy.
No, sod refers to the layer of soil under the grass that is held together by the roots. Ahem.
And I am not surprised you know of no one who is gay in your country because they would likely be killed for it by your supposedly tolerant society. Such obvious blindness to the true nature of your own society while you come on these boards and purport to be from a society where equality for all was mastered years ago make YOU the hypocrite, "my friend".
Free speech is wrong. In the UK we don't have it, or not to my knowledge. You aren't allowed to spout racist or homophobic crap. It doesn't matter anyway I think most people would think of racists and homophobes such as yourself as subhuman anyway. I know this sounds harsh but I believe it is ok to hate someone for their beliefs, isn't that just the same as hating nazis for their beliefs?
Free speech is wrong. In the UK we don't have it, or not to my knowledge. You aren't allowed to spout racist or homophobic crap. It doesn't matter anyway I think most people would think of racists and homophobes such as yourself as subhuman anyway. I know this sounds harsh but I believe it is ok to hate someone for their beliefs, isn't that just the same as hating nazis for their beliefs?
Dude, you've just proved yourself wayyyyy more intolerant than me. Well done... Do you not even realise the sheer irony of that post?
I'm no longer continuing this, because you people have started to become very abusive, and everyone ganged up on me. Besides when did I abuse any of you? Did I personally attack you? Did I swear at any of you? I was only commenting on what I feel is right, and if you don't think as I do, swearing wouldn't make you right. If anyone wants to continue this conversation, PM me, and be respectful.
Apparantly you people don't like the lights of me, and I've made a complete bottom of myself by trying to express my views. Also I would like to apologise to anyone I have hurt, gay or straight. I didn't mean to hurt anyone, I just said what I thought was wrong and right. So if you will excuse me, I'll leave and get out of your ways. Good day to you.
I can indeed compare homophobia to racism. Both are the irrational hatred of a group as a result of ignorance, lack of education and poor upbringing.
One of my close family members and one of my best friends are gay. I get on very well with them both. Almost everyone has views on how life should be lived ideally, why is mine any different? I am against homosexuality purely because it is defined as adultery within my religion. I don't treat gays any differently than I treat the many, many other adulterers that I have to associate with in my life. Why is my view any less valid than the beliefs of anyone else? I agree with your views on racism which is a horrible thing, but I stand by my beliefs.
Blaming gays for being gay because "it's their choice" displays an astonishing ignorance. So should the same logic be applied to someone because of their religion? If you don't agree with the teachings of Judaism, should all Jewish people be discriminated against because "it's their choice" as they can change to another religion if they so choose?
I don't condone discrimination towards anyone because of their lifestyle choices. But I reserve the right to believe that someone elses way of life that they have chosen is wrong. I guess you believe that the way I have chosen to live my life is wrong, the difference is that I respect your right to hold that belief.
Also, I take extreme offence to your agreement with BeNdEr91 that you should be allowed to hold your opinion silently, be they politically correct or not. So basically, you're condoning bigotry and prejudice as long as it doesn't affect other people? That's pretty appalling. Sure, if you don't let your personal views affect anyone, then it hardly makes a difference. Then again, does a would-be paedophile playing out sick fantasies in his head while not actually committing them make it right? Hardly.
Bigotry is the intolerance of differing opinions. I am not condoning intolerance at all. I am condoning the right for people to belief what they want. Prejudice is defined as 'an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.' I have thought long and hard about why I believe what I believe. It is not an uneducated belief. And as I've stated I do not let my personal views affect the way I act towards people, so why are you intolerant of my beliefs? Obviously someone imagining commiting a criminal act is preferable to them doing it, but the Bible tells us that fantasizing about something is the same as doing it.
Sorry, I didn't actually see your response until now. I find it hard to believe that you harbour such feelings when a family member and a friend are both gay. I can't understand that at all. I just don't understand how someone can believe that the way a person lives their life is wrong if they are happy and they don't cause harm or distress to anyone or anything.
And I am intolerant of your beliefs because your beliefs are against me! They are against my friends! People who you don't know and have never met. Yet you would say that the way we live our lives is wrong? That is basically what it comes down to. You base your beliefs on a book that was written thousands of years ago. I base my beliefs on what I see around me in the here and now, not teachings that are thousands of years out of date. I believe in people living their lives as best they can and in a way that makes them happy while not causing harm and undue distress to the people around them.
Anyway, I shall not partake in this discussion any more. I have little interest in conversing with people like you and Bender91 who have allowed religion to warp their perspectives on modern life and society and who judge others for how they would live their lives. Talking about whether the way I live my life is right or wrong is not something I intend to do with someone I have never met, someone with no right to judge me, nor anyone else I might add.
I don't think you can compare homophobia to racism. You can't choose your race, but you can choose your lifestyle. That said most homophobes are unnecessarily offensive and discriminatory, just like most racists.
yeah and nor do gay people have a choice whether they are straight or gay, its not a lifestyle choice...
Whether you're born gay or not, I'm pretty sure you have a choice whether to sleep with another man or not.
yes but were all only human, if you found a woman attractive and she wanted to sleep with you, would you turn her down? its the same thing. What you saying is you can choose to be dead from the waist down or not
I suppose that makes sense, and is one of the easier problems to deal with. Though anyone who takes offence to the word gay takes things really too far.
And for soemone called Bender91, you sure are homophobic, and a bit of sod.
Sod. Isn't that short for sodomite, as in gay? Why are you using it as an insult? Or should I be flattered?
I know of NO person who is gay in my country, so it's a load of bull when people say that "he's born gay" and that crap.
Forgive me all for even starting this conversation. Please, finish my freedom of speech, and continue with yours, as it's "so important and every person has a right to say how he feels". This is hypocrisy.
i think its more of a case that there are plenty of gay people in your country but they are all scared of being hanged for it
My issue here is that they take issue with stereotypical gamertags but do totally f**k all to address the other abuse issues on XBox Live - regardless of this issue!
Yes, M$: Punishing The Victims & Rewarding The Villains
I don't think you can compare homophobia to racism. You can't choose your race, but you can choose your lifestyle. That said most homophobes are unnecessarily offensive and discriminatory, just like most racists.
yeah and nor do gay people have a choice whether they are straight or gay, its not a lifestyle choice...
Whether you're born gay or not, I'm pretty sure you have a choice whether to sleep with another man or not.
yes but were all only human, if you found a woman attractive and she wanted to sleep with you, would you turn her down? its the same thing. What you saying is you can choose to be dead from the waist down or not
If I wasn't married to that woman, then Yes I'd turn her down. Virginity and Celibacy are viewed as such bad things nowadays, when if you respect God and your body purity should be valued. If you think being human is merely giving into your basic animalistic desires, then frankly I pity you.
My issue here is that they take issue with stereotypical gamertags but do totally f**k all to address the other abuse issues on XBox Live - regardless of this issue!
I wonder how many people actually make a formal complaint when they are verbally abused on Xbox Live though. Not many bother, I'd wager.
It'd be interesting if MS released the details of the number of complaints vs. number of people who've been banned.
I don't think it's homophobic for somebody to say they don't want it rubbed in their face. If they were to say they weren't prepared to tolerate homosexuality at all that would be a different matter but that's as is. I know several gay people (one being my best mate's brother) and have met many more throughout my life. Many are just ordinary unassuming people but I've also met a fair few who seem to feel the need to broadcast it to all and sundry in the most inappropriate of ways. Some of the stories I've heard from my mate's brother really made me feel quite uncomfortable and it's not because he's gay. I feel the same way about my straight friend Ian who feels the need to tell me every grim slurpy detail of his sexual conquests. Thing that annoys me is that I can tell Ian I don't wanna hear it while I'm eating my supper but if I tell the same to my mate's brother he makes some s**tty sanctimonious remark about people being bigoted. I know my argument doesn't speak for everyone (probably not even the majority) but my point is that lewdness is lewdness whether perpetrated by a straight or homosexual person and I don't think it's homophobic to say this. I'm not a prude either but I think if people are to be treated equally then they need to act equally and not expect special treatment. Where you put your sausage has nothing to do with how you conduct yourself in everyday life and I don't think it should be an issue.
I think it's true that some people in minorities of all kinds sometimes expect special treatment. Some even use prejudice as an excuse for their own failings. This is only the minority of minorities though
I don't think it's homophobic for somebody to say they don't want it rubbed in their face. If they were to say they weren't prepared to tolerate homosexuality at all that would be a different matter but that's as is. I know several gay people (one being my best mate's brother) and have met many more throughout my life. Many are just ordinary unassuming people but I've also met a fair few who seem to feel the need to broadcast it to all and sundry in the most inappropriate of ways. Some of the stories I've heard from my mate's brother really made me feel quite uncomfortable and it's not because he's gay. I feel the same way about my straight friend Ian who feels the need to tell me every grim slurpy detail of his sexual conquests. Thing that annoys me is that I can tell Ian I don't wanna hear it while I'm eating my supper but if I tell the same to my mate's brother he makes some s**tty sanctimonious remark about people being bigoted. I know my argument doesn't speak for everyone (probably not even the majority) but my point is that lewdness is lewdness whether perpetrated by a straight or homosexual person and I don't think it's homophobic to say this. I'm not a prude either but I think if people are to be treated equally then they need to act equally and not expect special treatment. Where you put your sausage has nothing to do with how you conduct yourself in everyday life and I don't think it should be an issue.
I completely agree with you there, I can't stand it when gay guys shove it in your face. Gay or straight, you don't want to hear the indepth details of their sexual encounters. That kind of thing should be kept personal!
Nothing new here, Microsoft won't let me have my last name in my email address and until a couple years ago wouldn't allow it as my last name in the details section!
Nothing new here, Microsoft won't let me have my last name in my email address and until a couple years ago wouldn't allow it as my last name in the details section!
There are measures in place to stop homophobes and racists already, you report them, people seem to be forgetting that.
I got an American child banned for being Anti-Semitic, (Watching too much South Park, that show really is s**t)
I've also reported thousands of those hillbillies and black people who constantly ruin matches on Rainbow Six: Vegas with their racist quarreling.
It's not always easy if you can't indentify who's talking. GTA IV for example doesn't show who's talking when, RS:V2 does though, which is a good thing.
There was some idiot child on their last night (American, but I've heard similar from English kids) throwing abuse around about 'n****r jews' and stuff like that. I'm not usually one to get wound up at stuff like that, but when it's incessant, inane rubbish like that throughout the entire match, it really p**ses me off.
As an aside, does anyone know if there's a way to mute individuals on GTA ? I seem to recall finding a way to do it whilst playing RS:V2 once, but it'd be useful to know how to do it elsewhere.....
I luv the way the 'n' word is censored here but jew is acceptable (Jew is deemed offensive to many jewish people)!
They do? I didnt know that.
I censored it myself. Everyone knows what it means, therefore no point in me testing the CVG censor machine.
I'm no longer continuing this, because you people have started to become very abusive, and everyone ganged up on me. Besides when did I abuse any of you? Did I personally attack you? Did I swear at any of you? I was only commenting on what I feel is right, and if you don't think as I do, swearing wouldn't make you right. If anyone wants to continue this conversation, PM me, and be respectful.
Apparantly you people don't like the lights of me, and I've made a complete bottom of myself by trying to express my views. Also I would like to apologise to anyone I have hurt, gay or straight. I didn't mean to hurt anyone, I just said what I thought was wrong and right. So if you will excuse me, I'll leave and get out of your ways. Good day to you.
Just read through your posts.......man, that's such a typical attitude - the whole "I'm not talking to you anymore" crap. Why by PM only ? Why does having people disagree with you make you want to run away ?
Get back on here and carry on the 'debate' if you've got the balls.
One thing I'd be interested to know - is that your opinion on gays, or are you simply following what a certain religion tells you to believe ?
Tolerant society my bottom.
Sorry, but people like you utterly, utterly f**k me off. Preaching like you're so evolved and mighty. Your attitude belongs in the stone-age mate, and I'm pretty sure even then it was outdated.
Sorry, but people like you utterly, utterly f**k me off. Preaching like you're so evolved and mighty. Your attitude belongs in the stone-age mate, and I'm pretty sure even then it was outdated.
I don't know if this was directed at me also, or just Bender, but I hope I've made it clear from my posts that I don't believe I'm 'better' than anyone else. I don't preach my views at people, but if a discussion arises I will happily share them.
Bender did continue the discussion with me by PM FYI. I think he felt a bit ganged-up on. (Which he was really.) It seems we disagree on more things than we agree on though.
No, it wasn't directed at you Deadgood. I have no problem with people expressing an opinion (god knows I've got enough of my own that're deemed 'controversial), but his first post just got my back up:
It doesn't matter how modern the times are, being gay will ALWAYS be unnatural. No parent is "proud" of their children becoming gay, and even though Americans overreact to almost everything, this is being handled appropriately.
Nothing against the gays here, just don't want my children to turn out that way, but really who honestly does?
Then he goes on to say how his society treats everyone equally. How can they if that's his attitude ? That's why I raised the question of his religion. I would be very interested to know what religion he is and how that religion affects his views on homosexuality.
The only issue I have with what you said is the question of whether gay people have a 'choice' to be gay or not.
Sure, anyone can control who they sleep with, but how you feel towards someone is not something that can be controlled. For example, could I force you to fall in love with (or even have sexual feelings towards) another man ?. No, of course I couldn't. So how can a gay man force himself to do the same with a woman ?
Being gay is not unatural, in fact if you take a look at the animal kingdom it's incredibly common.
Like I said though, I don't have a problem with your opinion, I just have a problem with people who say things like "No parent is "proud" of their children becoming gay".
Maybe no parent in his society, but then that leads me to question how much of a contribution towards humankind his 'society' is making.....
And if he felt ganged up on, good. It serves him right for posting such utter rubbish. It's just a shame that it probably won't make him wonder if his views have any relevance in 2008.
Sorry, I don't usually get would up, particularly on an internet forum, but idiots like him need to open their eyes and smell the s**t they're shovelling.
It doesn't matter how modern the times are, being gay will ALWAYS be unnatural. No parent is "proud" of their children becoming gay, and even though Americans overreact to almost everything, this is being handled appropriately.
Nothing against the gays here, just don't want my children to turn out that way, but really who honestly does?
Your an idiot. Other people have already called you out on this.
And Deadgood UK, according to your message history your a troll who tries to de-rail every thread you post into the same trash, that being an ideological-faith discussion. If you don't win you just throw a hissy fit.
You did this with 3 threads now and one of them was about Wii fit how completely irrelivent, get a life you loser.
The only issue I have with what you said is the question of whether gay people have a 'choice' to be gay or not.
Sure, anyone can control who they sleep with, but how you feel towards someone is not something that can be controlled. For example, could I force you to fall in love with (or even have sexual feelings towards) another man ?. No, of course I couldn't. So how can a gay man force himself to do the same with a woman ?
Well, never having been gay I can only speculate on this. But I would imagine that as being straight is the default and natural sexual orientation, then it would be much easier for a homo- to use their willpower to turn themself to be hetero- than vice-versa. Regardless the Bible tells us that if someone is unfortunate enough to 'born gay' then their only choices are celibacy, heterosexuality or hell...
Being gay is not unatural, in fact if you take a look at the animal kingdom it's incredibly common.
I don't find comparing human beings to animals a very constructive line of reasoning. I happen to believe that we are very much more than clever monkeys. Animals also engage in cannibalism, fecal-eating and incest. We aren't animals.
Like I said though, I don't have a problem with your opinion, I just have a problem with people who say things like "No parent is "proud" of their children becoming gay".
I'm sure there are people who couldn't give two hoots what orientation their child is, but if given a choice why would any parent want their child to be gay rather than straight?
And Deadgood UK, according to your message history your a troll who tries to de-rail every thread you post into the same trash, that being an ideological-faith discussion. If you don't win you just throw a hissy fit.
Well, I happen to know for a fact that you smell. Bad. You only post here cos you're in denial to the fact that I'm right and you're wrong. You smelly, smelly loser.
You fuc- high and mighty tw- , who the hell do you think you are marching in here and telling me im going to hell. The only person going to hell here is you for your bigotism, that muslim freak and MisterBedo, for thinking homosexuality is acceptable in our society. Im gay, I know im going to hell, I don't care, ill just have lots of sex while im here with men to make up for it, so get with the program!
tw-'s
The Nazis are in hell, why shouldn't the grammar nazis?
You fuc- high and mighty tw- , who the hell do you think you are marching in here and telling me im going to hell. The only person going to hell here is you for your bigotism, that muslim freak and MisterBedo, for thinking homosexuality is acceptable in our society. Im gay, I know im going to hell, I don't care, ill just have lots of sex while im here with men to make up for it, so get with the program!
tw-'s
The Nazis are in hell, why shouldn't the grammar nazis?
I'm your master. I'm the boss of you. (I'd say 'I'm your daddy' but you'd probably try and sleep with me) I'm a Nazi and proud of it. You want to have sex with lots of men, but nobody loves you, you ugly chickenface. So good luck with that!
Believe it or not my low interlectual friend, the Nazis were not a joke for your amusement, WW2 claimed the lifes of 6 million people as well as a lot of jewish people. (not jews) as well as many inferior migrants and stateless societies.
So pardon me if I find you offensive and ignorant, because you are, and I will explain why above.
I bet your one of those people on xbox live with a user name like 'Im so great' but spelt wrong because your an uninterlectual. Who thinks its big and clever to annoy people you'll never meet on the internet.
I have news for you, ITS NOT BIG AND ITS NOT CLEVER
I never annoy everyone I don't meet on the internet. I just state my views in a unantagonising way and never single out people or give personal insults. And for your information I AM an unterlectual. So I'm sure I know more about Jews than you never will. The Nazis would have unified Europe then the world, and we would have all been better off under the rule of our Great German Leader Alfred Hitler. The Nazis never killed anyone but gypsies and the disabled (and for good reasons). The Jews masterminded the Holocaust to undermine the Nazis and make them look bad - TRUE FACT. You are a fool Mr 'Faggy-Graddy'. You are clearly uneducated and probably American. I'm not racist, I just hate the evil countries.
Your a f- idiot, and a hipocrit. How can you be against america and not be racist. Your a hipocrit, thats what you are.
And BTW hitler wasn't right, he was wrong for sure. Wanna learn why www.wikipedia.org/hitler_adolf
I would never call someone I don't personally know, a hippocrit. So you're a hippocrit you;reself for doing so.
If I was WITH America then I guess I'd be a racist too. Cos there all racists. Plus I'm not racist against anyone that I don't hate. What's hippocritical about that? At least I'm honnest. And btw, you're wrong about Hitler. Everyone is biased against him. Think Hitler and you automatically think 'evil'. Does that mean he was evil? No. It just means you are bias.
Regardless the Bible tells us that if someone is unfortunate enough to 'born gay' then their only choices are celibacy, heterosexuality or hell...
The bible ? I'm curious........is that still the biggest selling work of fiction, or has Harry Potter now overtaken it ?
I'm sorry, but the second you quoted that at me I lost interest in your arguments entirely.
I don't find comparing human beings to animals a very constructive line of reasoning. I happen to believe that we are very much more than clever monkeys. Animals also engage in cannibalism, fecal-eating and incest. We aren't animals.
So do some humans, so what's your point ?
I'm sure there are people who couldn't give two hoots what orientation their child is, but if given a choice why would any parent want their child to be gay rather than straight?
Why would they not ? Aside from perhaps natuarally having a child (and even that isn't a barrier now-a-days), I can see no difference between what a straight person or a gay person could achieve.
The only person going to hell here is you for your bigotism, that muslim freak and MisterBedo, for thinking homosexuality is acceptable in our society.
Would that be the bible hell, or the one in the South Park movie ? Then again I suppose it could be the one out of the Hellraiser movies.....that one would be pretty cool.
Seriously, WTF guys ? Please tell me you're both having a laugh and aren't serious about some of the crap you've posted. If you are, Deadgood, you deserve to be banned for some of the s**t you post re the nazis and hitler..
If you're going to have an intellectual p**sing match please at least spell intellectual correctly. Getting as bad as Gippo and his grammer - no offence Gippo . I'd be prepared to school you in the construction of a intelligible argument - at a price.
Everything from telling Graddy he smells onwards was a joke.
Everything before that is the God's honest truth. I pity your stubborn ignorance. There's no point in continuing this discussion with you as you're clearly closed-minded and happy in your life of sin. I hope one day you'll open your eyes.
If you're going to have an intellectual p**sing match please at least spell intellectual correctly. Getting as bad as Gippo and his grammer - no offence Gippo . I'd be prepared to school you in the construction of a intelligible argument - at a price.
Do you not get the irony of spelling intellectual wrong? That was part of the joke..
If you're going to have an intellectual p**sing match please at least spell intellectual correctly. Getting as bad as Gippo and his grammer - no offence Gippo . I'd be prepared to school you in the construction of a intelligible argument - at a price.
Do you not get the irony of spelling intellectual wrong? That was part of the joke..
Not you good sir - you quote Einstein in your signature so I'm sure you have some smidgen of intellect. I understand irony and it is indeed ironic - I just don't think it was intended by the poster.
If the whole nazi thing was a joke then fair enough (albeit in extremely poor taste).
Everything before that is the God's honest truth. I pity your stubborn ignorance. There's no point in continuing this discussion with you as you're clearly closed-minded and happy in your life of sin. I hope one day you'll open your eyes.
I'm actually very open minded, I just don't happen to believe that we should live our lives according to a book written a long, long time ago.
Incedentally, how am I living a life of sin ?
BTW Bible Pwns Harry Potter in every possible way
Awww come on, what has the bible got that can possibly compete with Quidditch ?
Has human nature really changed since Biblical times? I honestly don't think so. Maybe if you'd actually read the Bible you'd realise how relevant it is. It'd also show you how you are living a life of sin.
Meaning of Life > Quidditch
The Nazis are a joke now anyway. Who would take them seriously? Obviously the Holocaust was one of the worst incidents in human history, I by no means meant for anyone to take my posts regarding that as anything approaching seriousness.
Human nature ? You mean to feed, procreate and defend oneself ? No, it hasn't changed that much since biblical times.
Humans as a species generally have changed though. We are more civilised, more accepting of others, have a far greater understanding of how the universe works. All sorts of things. So in that sense, humans have changed immeasurably since biblical times. There are exceptions to those things I just quoted - some people are not as accepting of others or any more civilised. The irony being that religion is often the root cause of these failings.
It's interesting that you call me closed-minded, and that you assume I'm not familiar with the bible. I am extremely open to the possibility of there being a god, but I'm willing to bet that you're not open to the possibilty that there isn't ? Perhaps making you the one who is closed-mided ?
Please, tell me why YOU think I am living in sin. I really would be interested to hear it. Is it the classic one about me not believing in god ?
Humans as a species generally have changed though. We are more civilised, more accepting of others.
Woah.. Woah.. Woah.. Stop right there. Do you ever pick up a newspaper? Ever watch the news? And lax morals =/= more accepting
The irony being that religion is often the root cause of these failings.
Sadly the vast majority of so-called 'religious' people are hypocrites.
I am extremely open to the possibility of there being a god, but I'm willing to bet that you're not open to the possibilty that there isn't ? Perhaps making you the one who is closed-mided ?
Oh great.. Another wishy-washy agnostic. 'There may be something greater than ourselves out there possibly..'. Such weak vague beliefs are utterly pointless. I was a Athiest before finding Jesus. I was certain that there was no such thing as God. I thought religion was laughable. Yet I had an open-mind. I thank God that I did.
It's interesting that you call me closed-minded, and that you assume I'm not familiar with the bible.
I don't believe I ever made that assumption.. What I am CERTAIN of is that you have not read the Bible with an open mind and heart.
Please, tell me why YOU think I am living in sin. I really would be interested to hear it. Is it the classic one about me not believing in god ?
The only thing that can save you from sin is accepting Jesus Christ into your heart. Simple as.
This is gonna go backwards and forwards like a ping pong ball isn't it ?
Woah.. Woah.. Woah.. Stop right there. Do you ever pick up a newspaper? Ever watch the news? And lax morals =/= more accepting
Are you seriously telling me that life in general was better 2000 years ago ? No, the world isn't perfect at the moment, yes there's a lot of bad stuff happening, but please don't tell me you honestly think that this planet was a more civilised place during biblical times.
Sadly the vast majority of so-called 'religious' people are hypocrites.
Now there's something we do agree on.
Oh great.. Another wishy-washy agnostic. 'There may be something greater than ourselves out there possibly..'. Such weak vague beliefs are utterly pointless. I was a Athiest before finding Jesus. I was certain that there was no such thing as God. I thought religion was laughable. Yet I had an open-mind. I thank God that I did.
A bit rude, perhaps I should refer to you as 'another wishy-brainwashed' ? You have to realise that not everyone feels the need to believe in something higher than themselves. A lot of people are very secure and happy in lives without the need for a crutch. If someone showed me undeniable proof that God exists then I'd say "Fair enough, I was wrong". Until that time however I'm more than happy to go about my daily life just enjoying being alive and talking things as they come.
I don't believe I ever made that assumption.. What I am CERTAIN of is that you have not read the Bible with an open mind and heart.
To quote you "Maybe if you'd actually read the Bible". Sounds like an assumption to me.
MisterBedo wrote: Please, tell me why YOU think I am living in sin. I really would be interested to hear it. Is it the classic one about me not believing in god ?
Deadgood UK wrote:The only thing that can save you from sin is accepting Jesus Christ into your heart. Simple as.
So I was right then. I just got God and Jesus mixed up. No thanks. I feel no need to accept anyone into my heart except my wife, my family and friends. I treat people with respect regardless of their beliefs, sexualtiy, religion or colour and I like to think that, generally, I'm a pretty decent bloke.
If I'm wrong and, by not believing in the same things as you, I'm damning myself for all eternity.....well, I guess you'll be able to thumb your nose at me when you're eventually sat up on that cloud.
In the meantime, I'll go about my life just as I am. And you know what ? For all the good religion is supposed to do, it saddens me that if I did follow your 'good book' I'd have to look down on some of my best friends simply because they were in love with people of the same sex. Which is, afterall, how this conversation started.
Are you seriously telling me that life in general was better 2000 years ago ? No, the world isn't perfect at the moment, yes there's a lot of bad stuff happening, but please don't tell me you honestly think that this planet was a more civilised place during biblical times.
These are the last days, my friend. Look around you. You're blind if you think that this Earth is any better off than 2000 years ago. I think you're confusing the UK with the world. This country is bad enough. Sure we don't have systematic genocide, or a corrupt, bloodthirsty ruling military regime but our goverment has recently made it legal for scientists to create animal-human hybrid embryos. Surely you don't have to be religious to be sickened by the thought of that? Please tell me that you don't consider the human race to be no better than animals?
But you have to realise that not everyone feels the need to believe in something higher than ourselves.
If you believe that this life is all there is, and that death is the end then you're essentially admitting that life is meaningless. That we exist merely to propogate the species.. That anything you do has no consequence. That there is no such thing as right or wrong, it's just a delusion thought up by our clever monkey brains.. That all your actions are just distractions for your concsiousness until you die.
Wow.. From an unbiased stance, surely the belief that life has some meaning would be preferable?
If someone showed me undeniable proof that God exists then I'd say "Fair enough, I was wrong". Until that time however I'm more than happy to go about my daily life just enjoying being alive and talking things as they come.
Why should eternal reward be given to someone who has made no effort to earn it?
I don't believe I ever made that assumption.. What I am CERTAIN of is that you have not read the Bible with an open mind and heart.
To quote you "Maybe if you'd actually read the Bible". Sounds like an assumption to me.
The word 'read' here is in the future tense, rather than the past tense. I was not suggesting that you have never read the Bible, I was suggesting that you go and read it again but from an openhearted standpoint.
Deadgood UK wrote:The only thing that can save you from sin is accepting Jesus Christ into your heart. Simple as.
So I was right then. I just got God and Jesus mixed up. No thanks. I feel no need to accept anyone into my heart except my wife, my family and friends. I treat people with respect regardless of their beliefs, sexualtiy, religion or colour and I like to think that, generally, I'm a pretty decent bloke.
And I respect your right to live your life the way you choose to. But it's my duty as a Christian to try and spread the word. Sadly you appear to be a lost cause.
If I'm wrong and, by not believing in the same things as you, I'm damning myself for all eternity.....well, I guess you'll be able to thumb your nose at me when you're eventually sat up on that cloud.
And if I'm wrong then.. oh wait. Nothing will happen. I'll have just lived an honest and loving life.
In the meantime, I'll go about my life just as I am. And you know what ? For all the good religion is supposed to do, it saddens me that if I did follow your 'good book' I'd have to look down on some of my best friends simply because they were in love with people of the same sex. Which is, afterall, how this conversation started.
I don't remember saying that I 'look down' on people in same sex relationships. Not being a hypocritical Christian, I love my homosexual fellow men as much as I love everyone else. I don't know if you saw in my earlier post that I have gay family and friends that I get on great with. I don't see myself as any better than them, or see them as any kind of lesser people. I simply believe that they are not living a godly life and therefore would be denied entry to the Kingdom of Heaven. But as I believe that 99.9% of the human race is probably not going to heaven, I'm not singling out homosexuals in any way. I honestly believe that anyone who is true, unhypocritical Christian and who tries to follow the Word of God as best they can, can only be a force for good in this world.
There is a fantastic book called "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. He dissects every single argument for belief in God, point by point. In the Bible, God (who is supposedly all-loving) causes horrific atrocities for no real reason. He kills or orders the deaths of millions more than Hitler ever managed. And no, there is no point to life. We are biological organisms, driven by the instinct to procreate just like any other species. The fact that we have more developed brains does not make us any more superior than the rest of the life in this world. In fact, we have been responsible for some of the worst atrocities in the history of the world. Have you ever known a horse to kill thousands because they disagreed with someone's religion? Religion = bigotry. Show me a single war in human history that does not have religion at its core. We would all be better off without it. You said you found god, Deadwood. Maybe it's about time you lost him again and started thinking for yourself instead of letting your mind be riddled with a load of propaganda. Oh, and by the way, the bible was constructed by the vatican. They burned over 200 books that they did not agree with. So the bible is not the word of God. It is the word of man, and edited for man's purposes at the time. Annnnnnnnnnnnnnd... the whole concept of Hell comes from a mistranslation. The original hebrew text mentioned "sheoul", which means "Grave." I.E, "he who does not believe in me shall go to the grave", meaning that they would die a mortal death with no afterlife. The modern concept of hell was constructed during the Dark Ages, when the church had unquestioned rule, in order to scare the population into paying the tithe. If you would like to continue this, then by all means do. I am pretty confident I can pick apart any possible argument you come up with.
There is a fantastic book called "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. He dissects every single argument for belief in God, point by point.
I am familiar with the works of Richard Dawkins. He is obviously a very intellegent man, but his arguments are just as one-sided and biased as any from a religious standpoint. Probably moreso, as although many religious people are tolerant of Athiests, Dawkins for some reason seems to have an active dislike of religion in general. He does not acknowledge any of the benefits of religion that even the most basic Athiest psychologist or anthropologist could tell you. He also seems to be of the opinion that anything, including God, can be subject to scientific analysis. The very definition of a God makes this absurd. Dawkins definition of a God appears to be a seperate consious entity existing outside of the universe - a 'bearded man in the sky'. I don't quite understand why this man is so eager to strip humankind of faith, and life of meaning.. Science has been abused and perverted just like religion. Does this mean all Science is bad and a thing to be feared? Of course not. Dawkins is as blinkered as the people he seeks to brand as delusional.
In the Bible, God (who is supposedly all-loving) causes horrific atrocities for no real reason. He kills or orders the deaths of millions more than Hitler ever managed.
Well, again the definition of God to me is perfection. God is Love, but God is also to be feared. God can be Judmental, and His is a perfect Judgement by definition. Therefore anyone who falls prey to God's wrath is deserving of it. I don't quote know where you get the figure of 'More than Hitler ever managed' though..
And no, there is no point to life. We are biological organisms, driven by the instinct to procreate just like any other species. The fact that we have more developed brains does not make us any more superior than the rest of the life in this world. In fact, we have been responsible for some of the worst atrocities in the history of the world. Have you ever known a horse to kill thousands because they disagreed with someone's religion?
See, this is contradictory to me. If we are mere animals and life is meaningless then surely the concept of 'an atrocity' is just as much a delusion of the mind as the concept of God... There is no Right or Wrong. Its just a figment of your imagination. That being the case, why do you have a problem with what I choose to believe?
The horse metaphor is just ludicrous.. According to you we are no better than any other animals.. That being the case Bacteria have killed Billions of other lifeforms throughout history. Atrocious!
Religion = bigotry. Show me a single war in human history that does not have religion at its core. We would all be better off without it. You said you found god, Deadwood. Maybe it's about time you lost him again and started thinking for yourself instead of letting your mind be riddled with a load of propaganda.
Ah. Now you're confusing Religion with those many, many people who use it as justification for their own prejudices or actions. These people are hypocrites. The VAST majority of 'religious' people do not follow the tenets of their own chosen religion. Technically, this means that they don't fall under the definition of religious..
Saying that ALL wars have a religious basis is just ignorance. Sheer ignorance.
God has improved my life immeasurably. If you'd like to explain to me how this is not the case, please do.
Whether you are an Athiest or not, surely you can see that faith and hope are the only things billions of less-fortunate people than you around the world have to cling to.. Being content with their meaningless and materialistic life is not an option for them. These people aren't starting wars, they're struggling to survive.
Oh, and by the way, the bible was constructed by the vatican. They burned over 200 books that they did not agree with. So the bible is not the word of God. It is the word of man, and edited for man's purposes at the time.
I think if the Vatican had been burning books that they didn't agree with, then most of the current New Testament would not have survived. The Catholic Church contradicts the Bible in an astonishing number of ways. They are probably the most disgusting, hypocritical, corrupt and Antichristian organisation in the world today. I believe that the Bible is the Word of God (or as close as possible taking into account human fallability). This is called FAITH. Look it up in the dictionary.
Annnnnnnnnnnnnnd... the whole concept of Hell comes from a mistranslation. The original hebrew text mentioned "sheoul", which means "Grave." I.E, "he who does not believe in me shall go to the grave", meaning that they would die a mortal death with no afterlife. The modern concept of hell was constructed during the Dark Ages, when the church had unquestioned rule, in order to scare the population into paying the tithe.
You are correct that Sheol is not descriptive of a fiery hell. You are incorrect that it means a literal grave. It refers to more of an 'underworld' where all souls (good and bad) go to at the point of death, to await judgement. The word 'Gehenna' however, (which is another word that is translated to hell in English) does refer to a place of fiery torment. Jesus himself used this word and mentioned that this 'hell' was a place where evildoers would be thrown into 'the fire that never shall be quenched'. Also the book of Revelations tells us that on Judgement Day those who names are not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the 'Lake of Fire'. So I'm not quite sure where you get the idea that Hell as we know it was not 'invented' until several centuries after Jesus' death.
If you would like to continue this, then by all means do. I am pretty confident I can pick apart any possible argument you come up with.
This discussion appears to be pointless as you are quite obviously a closed-minded individual who would not consider a viewpoint alternative to his own.
I've been a staunch Athiest for most of my life. What did it gain me? Nothing. In the few years since I found the love of Jesus Christ I feel that I potentially have EVERYTHING to gain. Again, I mention that if I'm wrong then congrats! life is meaningless.. If you're wrong, then I pity your immortal soul.
I don't remember saying that I 'look down' on people in same sex relationships. Not being a hypocritical Christian, I love my homosexual fellow men as much as I love everyone else. I don't know if you saw in my earlier post that I have gay family and friends that I get on great with. I don't see myself as any better than them, or see them as any kind of lesser people. I simply believe that they are not living a godly life and therefore would be denied entry to the Kingdom of Heaven. But as I believe that 99.9% of the human race is probably not going to heaven, I'm not singling out homosexuals in any way. I honestly believe that anyone who is true, unhypocritical Christian and who tries to follow the Word of God as best they can, can only be a force for good in this world.
Then we don't have a problem. My issue was with people attitudes towards homosexuality, I have no issue with you being being religious or your beliefs and faith. I am very much a live and let live sorta person when it comes to stuff like that.
I personally don't see the benefit of believing in a god, but I understand why people do.
The only question I would ask you is this: Your belief is absoute and therefore you presumably believe in hell. Would you really be happy to see you friends and family go there simply because they were gay ?
Then we don't have a problem. My issue was with people attitudes towards homosexuality, I have no issue with you being being religious or your beliefs and faith. I am very much a live and let live sorta person when it comes to stuff like that.
I personally don't see the benefit of believing in a god, but I understand why people do.
I'm glad to hear that you are more tolerant than you first appeared.
The only question I would ask you is this: Your belief is absoute and therefore you presumably believe in hell. Would you really be happy to see you friends and family go there simply because they were gay ?
I'm not happy with this situation, but it's what I believe. Life isn't easy and I don't make the rules..
That said, I also believe that no man can know the mind of God. The Bible was obviously written 2000 years ago, so although the majority of it is still relevant there are obviously some things that referred specifically to the culture they had at the time and are no longer relevant. Personally I still think homosexuality would be classed as adultery, but that's my interpretation.
I'm glad to hear that you are more tolerant than you first appeared.
There you go see, like I said, I'm a decent guy. I don't see why I should have to spend all eternity with a red hot poker up my bum just cos I don't believe in the Big Guy
I'm glad to hear that you are more tolerant than you first appeared.
There you go see, like I said, I'm a decent guy. I don't see why I should have to spend all eternity with a red hot poker up my bum just cos I don't believe in the Big Guy
Well, according to you, you won't have to.
I believe what I believe. You believe what you believe. We disagree with the others views, but no-one gets hurt and everyone's happy. Capiche?
I believe what I believe. You believe what you believe. We disagree with the others views, but no-one gets hurt and everyone's happy. Capiche?
Exactly. You don't strike me as the sort who's about to blow themselves up in the name of religion, and I'm not about to invade your house just because I disagree with you.
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