Sony has released an official statement confirming reports that LittleBigPlanet will be delayed.
Here's the statement from Sony:
During the review process prior to the release of LittleBigPlanet, it has been brought to our attention that one of the background music tracks licensed from a record label for use in the game contains two expressions that can be found in the Qur'an. We have taken immediate action to rectify this and we sincerely apologise for any offence that this may have caused.
Idiots...Wasn't this game made in the UK where even the stupidest things arer seen as racist now...how have the developers not noticed I could understand a little more maybe if it was made in Japan etc.
And before anyone squeals about an online patch, Sony are thinking that not everyone who may play the game has an online connection and so the only way to prevent a firebombing is to repress the whole thing.
I heard the soundtrack for LBP is pretty good, im sure someone said they had a load of tracks from The Go Team (a personal fave), but whose track is name dropping the Koran? Bizzare.
So the game will have to be remastered, presumably go through QA again, and then get a new window for pressing... can that even be done before Christmas? Surely there must be a queue of games that are waiting to get pressed, not least of which R2?!
It's a simple case of descrimination by bending to one relgion and not another. When a section of Christians called for Manchester Catherdral to be removed from Resistance Sony did nothing and then re-released the game un-edited as a platinum game.
If they didn't make changes for Resistance why do it for Little Big Planet.
So the game will have to be remastered, presumably go through QA again, and then get a new window for pressing... can that even be done before Christmas? Surely there must be a queue of games that are waiting to get pressed, not least of which R2?!
According to Shopto.net it will be out the week after.
So the game will have to be remastered, presumably go through QA again, and then get a new window for pressing... can that even be done before Christmas? Surely there must be a queue of games that are waiting to get pressed, not least of which R2?!
According to Shopto.net it will be out the week after.
Id be suprised though.
Yeah that would surprise me too, not least as it has just been posted on neogaf that this is a world wide delay and not just Europe.
"SCEE has supplied us with the official statement on the situation regarding LittleBigPlanet…
During the review process prior to the release of LittleBigPlanet, it has been brought to our attention that one of the background music tracks licensed from a record label for use in the game contains two expressions that can be found in the Qur’an. We have taken immediate action to rectify this and we sincerely apologise for any offence that this may have caused.
We will confirm the new launch date shortly.
We’ll keep you updated with further information as soon as we get it.
UPDATE
We’ve just been informed by SCEE that the delay to release is effective worldwide."
Idiots...Wasn't this game made in the UK where even the stupidest things arer seen as racist now...how have the developers not noticed I could understand a little more maybe if it was made in Japan etc.
How could they know that the in-game song contained words taken straight from the Qur'an unless they had read it parrot-like and could quote from it?
Chances are someone at MM thought the music suited the level perfectly and so licensed it.
If it would have been demeaning in some way to the Muslim faith then I could understand there being a problem but this is just petty...so much for Islam's ethos of tolerance and understanding, yet again!
So the game will have to be remastered, presumably go through QA again, and then get a new window for pressing... can that even be done before Christmas? Surely there must be a queue of games that are waiting to get pressed, not least of which R2?!
According to Shopto.net it will be out the week after.
Id be suprised though.
Yeah that would surprise me too, not least as it has just been posted on neogaf that this is a world wide delay and not just Europe.
They probs just put that so people wont cancel pre oders to be honest.
Really glad Ive change to Far Cry 2 now thoughas Ive had my eye on it a while.
Hopefully LBP wont be out till December, cos then I can get Fable 2, Deadspace and Cod5 in between.
It HAS to be a World Wide delay for the reason they have given.
So the game will have to be remastered, presumably go through QA again, and then get a new window for pressing... can that even be done before Christmas? Surely there must be a queue of games that are waiting to get pressed, not least of which R2?!
According to Shopto.net it will be out the week after.
Id be suprised though.
Yeah that would surprise me too, not least as it has just been posted on neogaf that this is a world wide delay and not just Europe.
They probs just put that so people wont cancel pre oders to be honest.
Really glad Ive change to Far Cry 2 now thoughas Ive had my eye on it a while.
Hopefully LBP wont be out till December, cos then I can get Fable 2, Deadspace and Cod5 in between.
It HAS to be a World Wide delay for the reason they have given.
With you there mate - with Fable 2, gears 2, Dead Space, Left for Dead and Guitar Hero 4 all on the way I am not short of games to play, just money to pay for them all. Just wait until the tabloids pick this up though...
What's with the intolerance? Why is there no mention of the fact that words from a holy book were used?
You may not be a Muslim, but does that mean you have to blame them for this what I can only assume is a huge oversight from the developers.
And why are people mentioning death threats? No death threats have been made.
Again, 'muslim' and 'extremist' are not the same.
That is a quality Avatar!
The thing I dont understand is why they have to take the music out because it has these words in it? What are the words? What harm can they do? I presume you dont need a license from Islam, so why do they need to take out any kind of reference to Islam anyway?
I presume there arent any Muslims complaining about it. It doesnt make sense.
So the game will have to be remastered, presumably go through QA again, and then get a new window for pressing... can that even be done before Christmas? Surely there must be a queue of games that are waiting to get pressed, not least of which R2?!
According to Shopto.net it will be out the week after.
Id be suprised though.
Yeah that would surprise me too, not least as it has just been posted on neogaf that this is a world wide delay and not just Europe.
They probs just put that so people wont cancel pre oders to be honest.
Really glad Ive change to Far Cry 2 now thoughas Ive had my eye on it a while.
Hopefully LBP wont be out till December, cos then I can get Fable 2, Deadspace and Cod5 in between.
It HAS to be a World Wide delay for the reason they have given.
With you there mate - with Fable 2, gears 2, Dead Space, Left for Dead and Guitar Hero 4 all on the way I am not short of games to play, just money to pay for them all. Just wait until the tabloids pick this up though...
If you are Muslin and are offended by LBP, refuse to buy the game in protest (hurting Sony's back pocket) and stick by your religious beliefs whilst we all have fun with our sackboys!
What's with the intolerance? Why is there no mention of the fact that words from a holy book were used?
You may not be a Muslim, but does that mean you have to blame them for this what I can only assume is a huge oversight from the developers.
And why are people mentioning death threats? No death threats have been made.
Again, 'muslim' and 'extremist' are not the same.
That is a quality Avatar!
The thing I dont understand is why they have to take the music out because it has these words in it? What are the words? What harm can they do? I presume you dont need a license from Islam, so why do they need to take out any kind of reference to Islam anyway?
I presume there arent any Muslims complaining about it. It doesnt make sense.
ya thts what those cartoonists thought. i have a feeling tht if this gets onto the news then there will always b sum losers who will go mental with it being there in the first place
Games like Saints Row 2, Fall Out 3, Mirrors Edge, quantum of solace and even Dead Space just dont have a chance do they?
With LBP, Gears, COD5, Banjo, Resistance, Fable, Far Cry, Prince of Persia, Tomb raider etc there are gonna be a lot of Devs who have invested alot of money that are gonna get very little return because of the current credit problems.
So the game will have to be remastered, presumably go through QA again, and then get a new window for pressing... can that even be done before Christmas? Surely there must be a queue of games that are waiting to get pressed, not least of which R2?!
It's delayed by 3 weeks, 21 days until the 14th of November. It's only a game, hardly life or death. It could be worse, I see Fable 2 has been hacked and pirate copies are available for download. Thats Fable 2, Farcry 2 and Fallout 3 all hacked and available for anyone with the mod.
What's with the intolerance? Why is there no mention of the fact that words from a holy book were used?
You may not be a Muslim, but does that mean you have to blame them for this what I can only assume is a huge oversight from the developers.
And why are people mentioning death threats? No death threats have been made.
Again, 'muslim' and 'extremist' are not the same.
That is a quality Avatar!
The thing I dont understand is why they have to take the music out because it has these words in it? What are the words? What harm can they do? I presume you dont need a license from Islam, so why do they need to take out any kind of reference to Islam anyway?
I presume there arent any Muslims complaining about it. It doesnt make sense.
ya thts what those cartoonists thought. i have a feeling tht if this gets onto the news then there will always b sum losers who will go mental with it being there in the first place
Fair point to be honest.
I hold nothing against them though. Its a different world over there, it must be a really hard life.
None of us lot can understand the instability and tragedy they go through everyday of their lives so you can excuse them being a bit p**sed off from time to time.
"SCEE has supplied us with the official statement on the situation regarding LittleBigPlanet…
During the review process prior to the release of LittleBigPlanet, it has been brought to our attention that one of the background music tracks licensed from a record label for use in the game contains two expressions that can be found in the Qur’an. We have taken immediate action to rectify this and we sincerely apologise for any offence that this may have caused.
We will confirm the new launch date shortly.
We’ll keep you updated with further information as soon as we get it.
UPDATE
We’ve just been informed by SCEE that the delay to release is effective worldwide."
So Sony can stand up for themselves against the catholic church, but buckle when one individual complains about lyrics that arent actually that offensive. Me smells a cover up.
So Sony can stand up for themselves against the catholic church, but buckle when one individual complains about lyrics that arent actually that offensive. Me smells a cover up.
no it is because if the media gets wind of this there will be titles in the daily mail saying"anti muslim game teaches kids to be anti muslim" or something like that and nobody gives a s**t about christians because they don't make a big such a big fuss about these things
You take notice of what the Daily Mail tells you to?
Hey guys this is the link to get the background story! The dealio is that apparently- (i say 'apparantly' cos i was totally ignorant to this fact and i'm basically repeating what yer man has said here) -its offensive to muslims to have words from their holy book in song or to be reading it whilst listening to music etc. While it's a fair point censoring it for everyone is in my opinion the wrong way to go, maybe have an option to blank out the words on that bit, because while it may offend some it won't offend others(i.e what if someone's offended by people talking about sex...should all talk of such a subject be censored around that one person? I dont think so) Being offended seems totally fashionable these days but people just 'flag' 'bad words' (kinda like search engines) and call the racist/discrimination card etc rather than think of what the intent behind it or taking it in context, which is leadin to people not really understand the basics of such things! Take for example smokers, they're given grief all the time about 2nd hand smoke from non smokers(if you're so worried about 2nd hand smoke ban every car on the road right now) so smoking is banned in public places etc. and they have to go to special areas etc. At the end of the day smoking is a personal choice! Has it even ever been considered that treating smokers different because of a personal choice is discrimination? Sorry I know thats way off topic and a little convoluted but I've it written now so i ain't deleting it!
Well, at least it avoids Fable 2, Fallout 3 and most likley Gears 2 as well now, meaning it may get more attention from the general gaming public than it otherwise would. I was planning on picking this up later down the line anyway so a delay doesn't really bother me as long as it's released before the end of the year.
Hey guys this is the link to get the background story! The dealio is that apparently- (i say 'apparantly' cos i was totally ignorant to this fact and i'm basically repeating what yer man has said here) -its offensive to muslims to have words from their holy book in song or to be reading it whilst listening to music etc. While it's a fair point censoring it for everyone is in my opinion the wrong way to go, maybe have an option to blank out the words on that bit, because while it may offend some it won't offend others(i.e what if someone's offended by people talking about sex...should all talk of such a subject be censored around that one person? I dont think so) Being offended seems totally fashionable these days but people just 'flag' 'bad words' (kinda like search engines) and call the racist/discrimination card etc rather than think of what the intent behind it or taking it in context, which is leadin to people not really understand the basics of such things! Take for example smokers, they're given grief all the time about 2nd hand smoke from non smokers(if you're so worried about 2nd hand smoke ban every car on the road right now) so smoking is banned in public places etc. and they have to go to special areas etc. At the end of the day smoking is a personal choice! Has it even ever been considered that treating smokers different because of a personal choice is discrimination? Sorry I know thats way off topic and a little convoluted but I've it written now so i ain't deleting it!
Yeah but there is a major difference, in that the car (and vehicles as a whole) are a necessary evil in our industrialised world, without which, the economy would grind to a halt (or in the current financial climate, a bigger halt!), whereas smoking serves no benefit whatsoever, apart from killing the addict or if in the presence of other non-smokers, them also!
Islam yet again proves itself to be a false religion.
Yeah, because Christianity is completely untouchable in this respect.
But the difference is that the commercial world isn't "s**t scared!" of the what the Christian world think, yet have to catfoot around everything Islam related, in the hope that a few mentalists might not blow the f**k out of their offices because they don't like the music, pictures, wording, jesting, clothes, habits, lifestyle etc. of the said religion!
Even the head of the Leftist (like yourself) BBC have just declared that Islam should be treated much more delicately than other religions and that should be reflected in all future broadcasts...it really is a sad state of affairs!
What's with the intolerance? Why is there no mention of the fact that words from a holy book were used?
You may not be a Muslim, but does that mean you have to blame them for this what I can only assume is a huge oversight from the developers.
And why are people mentioning death threats? No death threats have been made.
Again, 'muslim' and 'extremist' are not the same.
True, not all muslims are extreme, but islam itslef IS extreme.
A religion cannot be judged by how some of its followers behave, for good, or for bad.
You should judge islam on the koran. Muslims believe the koran is the absolute word of god, dictated to their prophet mohammed by god himslef, therefore it is infallible.
Has anyone actually bothered to read it? Far from being the religion of peace we are all told that it is, it is the most intolerant, aggressive and barbaric piece of literature u could imagine.
There are numerous passages advocating, and instructing the killing of non believers. It refers to christians and jews as apes and pigs, and instructs either their conversion to islam or their death.
Mohammed himself was a mass murdering paedophile. He married a 6 year old and consumated their marriage (raped her) when she was 9. This is actually in the koran - her name was aisha if anyone wants to google it.
Many muslims are decent people, but islam itself is a vile, murderous cult. People need to realise this before our appeasemant costs the west dear.
Plenty of money is being made from the tax on tobacco around the world! But what i'm gettin at though is that treating smokers differently is a form of discrimination but at the moment it's not a fashionable one so no where is it stated, people who consider themselves chief-defenders of anti-discrimination well often times turn around and be discriminatory against those who smoke(and it isn't just smoking there's surely more areas like this)! My problem is what people tackling this area with a very static and robotic view and basically getting their info on from tv and tabloids(i'm waiting for the day the Sun has a "Whats Racist, Whats Not List!!) i.e claiming someone is racist/discriminatory because they heard them say n***** or f** etc. but not looking to see any intent behind it! Doing it that way further separates different backgrounds and will just keep actual racism/discrimination alive much longer rather than promote the idea that none of that really matters one s**te seeing as we're all one species from the one planet etc. etc (Not that it'd matter if there were different species from different planets). Jeez that's gettin very hippyish for me liking there!!
What's with the intolerance? Why is there no mention of the fact that words from a holy book were used?
You may not be a Muslim, but does that mean you have to blame them for this what I can only assume is a huge oversight from the developers.
And why are people mentioning death threats? No death threats have been made.
Again, 'muslim' and 'extremist' are not the same.
True, not all muslims are extreme, but islam itslef IS extreme.
A religion cannot be judged by how some of its followers behave, for good, or for bad.
You should judge islam on the koran. Muslims believe the koran is the absolute word of god, dictated to their prophet mohammed by god himslef, therefore it is infallible.
Has anyone actually bothered to read it? Far from being the religion of peace we are all told that it is, it is the most intolerant, aggressive and barbaric piece of literature u could imagine.
There are numerous passages advocating, and instructing the killing of non believers. It refers to christians and jews as apes and pigs, and instructs either their conversion to islam or their death.
Mohammed himself was a mass murdering paedophile. He married a 6 year old and consumated their marriage (raped her) when she was 9. This is actually in the koran - her name was aisha if anyone wants to google it.
Many muslims are decent people, but islam itself is a vile, murderous cult. People need to realise this before our appeasemant costs the west dear.
Well you cant really argue with that.
Still, many of the old books were like that.
I think in the Bible it says cripples and gays should be killed, or something like that.
Look at the Crusades aswell. Religion is basically all the same thing, but with different names.
Im no expert by any stretch, but thats the way I see it.
What's with the intolerance? Why is there no mention of the fact that words from a holy book were used?
You may not be a Muslim, but does that mean you have to blame them for this what I can only assume is a huge oversight from the developers.
And why are people mentioning death threats? No death threats have been made.
Again, 'muslim' and 'extremist' are not the same.
True, not all muslims are extreme, but islam itslef IS extreme.
A religion cannot be judged by how some of its followers behave, for good, or for bad.
You should judge islam on the koran. Muslims believe the koran is the absolute word of god, dictated to their prophet mohammed by god himslef, therefore it is infallible.
Has anyone actually bothered to read it? Far from being the religion of peace we are all told that it is, it is the most intolerant, aggressive and barbaric piece of literature u could imagine.
There are numerous passages advocating, and instructing the killing of non believers. It refers to christians and jews as apes and pigs, and instructs either their conversion to islam or their death.
Mohammed himself was a mass murdering paedophile. He married a 6 year old and consumated their marriage (raped her) when she was 9. This is actually in the koran - her name was aisha if anyone wants to google it.
Many muslims are decent people, but islam itself is a vile, murderous cult. People need to realise this before our appeasemant costs the west dear.
Well you cant really argue with that.
Still, many of the old books were like that.
I think in the Bible it says cripples and gays should be killed, or something like that.
Look at the Crusades aswell. Religion is basically all the same thing, but with different names.
Im no expert by any stretch, but thats the way I see it.
The bible's references to what u stated were mainly old testament, not the new testament.
Regardless, the fundamental difference is that the bible is aknowledged to be written by man, therefore is open to question, and interpretation.
The koran is stated to be the absolute word of god, therefore it cannot be changed or interpreted or updated.
Also the crusades were essentially a defensive necessity to stop the violent spread of islam. Its like saying us declaring war on Nazi Germany in WW2 was wrong.
Plenty of money is being made from the tax on tobacco around the world! But what i'm gettin at though is that treating smokers differently is a form of discrimination but at the moment it's not a fashionable one so no where is it stated, people who consider themselves chief-defenders of anti-discrimination well often times turn around and be discriminatory against those who smoke(and it isn't just smoking there's surely more areas like this)! My problem is what people tackling this area with a very static and robotic view and basically getting their info on from tv and tabloids(i'm waiting for the day the Sun has a "Whats Racist, Whats Not List!!) i.e claiming someone is racist/discriminatory because they heard them say n***** or f** etc. but not looking to see any intent behind it! Doing it that way further separates different backgrounds and will just keep actual racism/discrimination alive much longer rather than promote the idea that none of that really matters one s**te seeing as we're all one species from the one planet etc. etc (Not that it'd matter if there were different species from different planets). Jeez that's gettin very hippyish for me liking there!!
Have to agree with you in the main but unfortunately you sound like an idealist, which if you think prejudice & discrimination will ever disappear is for me way off the mark!
Cultural differences is fine, but the government and loony left have marginalised the indigenous, white, population to such a degree that if anything there's almost certainly more resentment!
LOL...and as for your smoking debate, yeah they pay into the National Health system via "fag tax", but don't forget the money spent to make your "dying lungs" and "cancer victims" better!! And believe me, if it wasn't a tax on cigs, the government would soon recoup the cost elsewhere!!
I can agree with your point about the Koran cos that is totally true.
I think the thing about the Crusades thats a bit galling is that to this day the Church has never apologised for the killing of so many innocent people. It wasnt really a case of war near the end, just more of a mass cull. I can understand your point though and it does make sense.
It doesnt really seem right condeming thr Religion of Islam though, cos I know quite a few devout Muslims and they just arent the war mongering people many believe they are. They are totally committed to their Religion, but they dont take everything in the book seriously, so you could argue that their belief structure has evolved aswell as other religions.
Of course their are exceptions, but their are still exceptions in other Religions too. Just not as bad at the moment.
What's with the intolerance? Why is there no mention of the fact that words from a holy book were used?
You may not be a Muslim, but does that mean you have to blame them for this what I can only assume is a huge oversight from the developers.
And why are people mentioning death threats? No death threats have been made.
Again, 'muslim' and 'extremist' are not the same.
True, not all muslims are extreme, but islam itslef IS extreme.
A religion cannot be judged by how some of its followers behave, for good, or for bad.
You should judge islam on the koran. Muslims believe the koran is the absolute word of god, dictated to their prophet mohammed by god himslef, therefore it is infallible.
Has anyone actually bothered to read it? Far from being the religion of peace we are all told that it is, it is the most intolerant, aggressive and barbaric piece of literature u could imagine.
There are numerous passages advocating, and instructing the killing of non believers. It refers to christians and jews as apes and pigs, and instructs either their conversion to islam or their death.
Mohammed himself was a mass murdering paedophile. He married a 6 year old and consumated their marriage (raped her) when she was 9. This is actually in the koran - her name was aisha if anyone wants to google it.
Many muslims are decent people, but islam itself is a vile, murderous cult. People need to realise this before our appeasemant costs the west dear.
The bible is just as bad as that(old testament anyways) and how many people out there believe it to be the absolute word of god? Lots thats how many-scientific answer i know!!! And though the comercial world ain't to worried about offending christianity now it once was....whole countries were basically ruled by the church! Religions would be a good idea if it weren't for those pesky humans!!!
Plenty of money is being made from the tax on tobacco around the world! But what i'm gettin at though is that treating smokers differently is a form of discrimination but at the moment it's not a fashionable one so no where is it stated, people who consider themselves chief-defenders of anti-discrimination well often times turn around and be discriminatory against those who smoke(and it isn't just smoking there's surely more areas like this)! My problem is what people tackling this area with a very static and robotic view and basically getting their info on from tv and tabloids(i'm waiting for the day the Sun has a "Whats Racist, Whats Not List!!) i.e claiming someone is racist/discriminatory because they heard them say n***** or f** etc. but not looking to see any intent behind it! Doing it that way further separates different backgrounds and will just keep actual racism/discrimination alive much longer rather than promote the idea that none of that really matters one s**te seeing as we're all one species from the one planet etc. etc (Not that it'd matter if there were different species from different planets). Jeez that's gettin very hippyish for me liking there!!
Have to agree with you in the main but unfortunately you sound like an idealist, which if you think prejudice & discrimination will ever disappear is for me way off the mark!
Cultural differences is fine, but the government and loony left have marginalised the indigenous, white, population to such a degree that if anything there's almost certainly more resentment!
LOL...and as for your smoking debate, yeah they pay into the National Health system via "fag tax", but don't forget the money spent to make your "dying lungs" and "cancer victims" better!! And believe me, if it wasn't a tax on cigs, the government would soon recoup the cost elsewhere!!
I think eventually people could evolve beyond such a wasteful spending of time and energy, especially if the cycle of just accepting that governments will consist(mostly)of the corrupt anal discharge of their respective societies is stopped, its way too unstable a system to last e.g a thousand years!
What about money spent on heart transplants, liver problems etc should cheese eaters and alcohol drinkers be equally discriminated against! I know there's no such thing as 2nd hand cheesing but basically what i'm saying is even if you never come across tobacco in your life you will still die, perhaps even through a problem with your lungs, i'd say the majority of money spent on people in hospitals can be related to personal lifestyle choices in said persons life!
What's with the intolerance? Why is there no mention of the fact that words from a holy book were used?
You may not be a Muslim, but does that mean you have to blame them for this what I can only assume is a huge oversight from the developers.
And why are people mentioning death threats? No death threats have been made.
Again, 'muslim' and 'extremist' are not the same.
True, not all muslims are extreme, but islam itslef IS extreme.
A religion cannot be judged by how some of its followers behave, for good, or for bad.
You should judge islam on the koran. Muslims believe the koran is the absolute word of god, dictated to their prophet mohammed by god himslef, therefore it is infallible.
Has anyone actually bothered to read it? Far from being the religion of peace we are all told that it is, it is the most intolerant, aggressive and barbaric piece of literature u could imagine.
There are numerous passages advocating, and instructing the killing of non believers. It refers to christians and jews as apes and pigs, and instructs either their conversion to islam or their death.
Mohammed himself was a mass murdering paedophile. He married a 6 year old and consumated their marriage (raped her) when she was 9. This is actually in the koran - her name was aisha if anyone wants to google it.
Many muslims are decent people, but islam itself is a vile, murderous cult. People need to realise this before our appeasemant costs the west dear.
Well you cant really argue with that.
Still, many of the old books were like that.
I think in the Bible it says cripples and gays should be killed, or something like that.
Look at the Crusades aswell. Religion is basically all the same thing, but with different names.
Im no expert by any stretch, but thats the way I see it.
The bible's references to what u stated were mainly old testament, not the new testament.
Regardless, the fundamental difference is that the bible is aknowledged to be written by man, therefore is open to question, and interpretation.
The koran is stated to be the absolute word of god, therefore it cannot be changed or interpreted or updated.
Also the crusades were essentially a defensive necessity to stop the violent spread of islam. Its like saying us declaring war on Nazi Germany in WW2 was wrong.
The bible is DEFINITELY not acknowledged or believed by the Christian faith to be accepted as written "by man", if so, the whole religion would collapse as it's believed to be true word from God via his only Son Christ and the Apostles as his witnesses.
The Qur'an has also had many scolars the world over interpreting its contents to fit their purpose...not sure if you know, but many Middle East based and oil rich Al'qaeda based companies and sympathisers spend untold millions each year printing "revised" versions of the Qur'an with disgusting disregard to everything regarding the Western way of life, this is the version that is being followed by the "extremists" now..."All non-believers are infidels and should be killed!"...i paraphrase.
If smoking was to be stopped then we'd all have to pay more income and council tax.
The Government wouldnt be able to cope with the loss in revenue.
No trust me they wouldn't, they'd raise "Inheritance tax" or the duty on Alcohol, or raise VAT to 19%...truth is, smoking is a disgusting, anti-social habit that serves no purpose other than to placate the smoker, and in company, turn a pleasant night into a bad one and not forgetting killing the non-smoker as well.
I can agree with your point about the Koran cos that is totally true.
I think the thing about the Crusades thats a bit galling is that to this day the Church has never apologised for the killing of so many innocent people. It wasnt really a case of war near the end, just more of a mass cull. I can understand your point though and it does make sense.
It doesnt really seem right condeming thr Religion of Islam though, cos I know quite a few devout Muslims and they just arent the war mongering people many believe they are. They are totally committed to their Religion, but they dont take everything in the book seriously, so you could argue that their belief structure has evolved aswell as other religions.
Of course their are exceptions, but their are still exceptions in other Religions too. Just not as bad at the moment.
have the muslims ever said sorry for crusading spain and then attacking france no they have not because the crusades where in respones to that
Exactly.
But all that proves is they are both as bad as each other.
The bible is DEFINITELY not acknowledged or believed by the Christian faith to be accepted as written "by man", if so, the whole religion would collapse as it's believed to be true word from God via his only Son Christ and the Apostles as his witnesses.
The Qur'an has also had many scolars the world over interpreting its contents to fit their purpose...not sure if you know, but many Middle East based and oil rich Al'qaeda based companies and sympathisers spend untold millions each year printing "revised" versions of the Qur'an with disgusting disregard to everything regarding the Western way of life, this is the version that is being followed by the "extremists" now..."All non-believers are infidels and should be killed!"...i paraphrase.
Isn't that the problem with all religions? They're twisted and turned by those in power to suit their own needs, people then go on and treat them as fact rather than stories/examples to help them be better people....I tell if there's a being that started everything its a lot more elegant than anything people have come with!!!
The bible is DEFINITELY not acknowledged or believed by the Christian faith to be accepted as written "by man", if so, the whole religion would collapse as it's believed to be true word from God via his only Son Christ and the Apostles as his witnesses.
The Qur'an has also had many scolars the world over interpreting its contents to fit their purpose...not sure if you know, but many Middle East based and oil rich Al'qaeda based companies and sympathisers spend untold millions each year printing "revised" versions of the Qur'an with disgusting disregard to everything regarding the Western way of life, this is the version that is being followed by the "extremists" now..."All non-believers are infidels and should be killed!"...i paraphrase.
Isn't that the problem with all religions? They're twisted and turned by those in power to suit their own needs, people then go on and treat them as fact rather than stories/examples to help them be better people....I tell if there's a being that started everything its a lot more elegant than anything people have come with!!!
Absolutely...but treat ALL religions for what they are, old stories that were written to control the masses centuries ago.
The fact that a superb game like LBP has been delayed to the masses by an inoffensive song because of a "made up novel" is absolutely crazy!
Can we please remember that this is not a Theology debate, but in fact simply the topic of a Delayed game- so many angry voices citing ignorant views about Death Threats and conjecturous bulls**t like that that don't look at the facts of the matter and focus solely on the racial/religious divide.
I'm an Athiest, when the Church of England complained about Resistance, I asked why- since Resistance is a game about the survival of humanity against an alien threat and not Human killing Human, which would have made the complaint just that little bit more valid. Also, the Pulp Fiction bible quote is one of the greatest scenes in film, yet it didn't need to be edited out.
With this issue, it seems as though people have forgotten that Videogames are intrinsically an artform, much like making music or film, and as such should rightly allow for creative freedom and expressionism. The fact that the phrases (Two if I remember right) are taken from the Q'uaran is irrelevant to the fact that the person making the piece of music wanted to convey a certain feeling, emotion, idea, or simply to set a scene for where the track creates an atmosphere. Where the supposed offense comes from I have no idea- where the supposed offense caused by the DELAY I also have no idea. The game as a piece should be allowed to stand, because it undermines the integrity of the artist in question to remove his/her vision; similarly, people here shouldn't be damning others because of their Religious beliefs- we're entitled and free enough to debate these things, but when you bring hateful nationalist bulls**t into the argument, it becomes less a debate and more a witch hunt. Knock it on the head lads, there's no need for it.
okay i don't like were this thread has got to because you know what the mods are like about this sort of thing
I dont think anyones saying anything offensive, its just a reasoned debate.
I dont buy into just seeing the bad side of Religion. It does seem to produce wars and I agree that the books were made to control the masses, but it is built on good foundations for the most part.
And I dont mean whats written in the books, but the sense of community it brings.
This is basically dead in Christianity, but as I said earlier I know a few Muslim lads, and also a few Sikhs (cant spell that) for that matter and it seems good for them.
These people basically know EVERYONE in their community, and not to be too blunt, but they can basically get ANYTHING for free or a reduced price. So there are positives.
Being part of a large community and having plenty of contacts is very handy, and is what Religion is really all about.
Can we please remember that this is not a Theology debate, but in fact simply the topic of a Delayed game- so many angry voices citing ignorant views about Death Threats and conjecturous bulls**t like that that don't look at the facts of the matter and focus solely on the racial/religious divide.
I'm an Athiest, when the Church of England complained about Resistance, I asked why- since Resistance is a game about the survival of humanity against an alien threat and not Human killing Human, which would have made the complaint just that little bit more valid. Also, the Pulp Fiction bible quote is one of the greatest scenes in film, yet it didn't need to be edited out.
With this issue, it seems as though people have forgotten that Videogames are intrinsically an artform, much like making music or film, and as such should rightly allow for creative freedom and expressionism. The fact that the phrases (Two if I remember right) are taken from the Q'uaran is irrelevant to the fact that the person making the piece of music wanted to convey a certain feeling, emotion, idea, or simply to set a scene for where the track creates an atmosphere. Where the supposed offense comes from I have no idea- where the supposed offense caused by the DELAY I also have no idea. The game as a piece should be allowed to stand, because it undermines the integrity of the artist in question to remove his/her vision; similarly, people here shouldn't be damning others because of their Religious beliefs- we're entitled and free enough to debate these things, but when you bring hateful nationalist bulls**t into the argument, it becomes less a debate and more a witch hunt. Knock it on the head lads, there's no need for it.
I agree with you in that I cannot possibly see why people would be offended by it, and also about the whole art argument.
I dont understand were you get the impression that there's some kind of hateful argument going on though. We're just talking about it.
People should be allowed to express their views if they do it reasonably, and I think its been done that way in this thread. There are some strong opinions, but noones calling for anyones head.
Can we please remember that this is not a Theology debate, but in fact simply the topic of a Delayed game- so many angry voices citing ignorant views about Death Threats and conjecturous bulls**t like that that don't look at the facts of the matter and focus solely on the racial/religious divide.
I'm an Athiest, when the Church of England complained about Resistance, I asked why- since Resistance is a game about the survival of humanity against an alien threat and not Human killing Human, which would have made the complaint just that little bit more valid. Also, the Pulp Fiction bible quote is one of the greatest scenes in film, yet it didn't need to be edited out.
With this issue, it seems as though people have forgotten that Videogames are intrinsically an artform, much like making music or film, and as such should rightly allow for creative freedom and expressionism. The fact that the phrases (Two if I remember right) are taken from the Q'uaran is irrelevant to the fact that the person making the piece of music wanted to convey a certain feeling, emotion, idea, or simply to set a scene for where the track creates an atmosphere. Where the supposed offense comes from I have no idea- where the supposed offense caused by the DELAY I also have no idea. The game as a piece should be allowed to stand, because it undermines the integrity of the artist in question to remove his/her vision; similarly, people here shouldn't be damning others because of their Religious beliefs- we're entitled and free enough to debate these things, but when you bring hateful nationalist bulls**t into the argument, it becomes less a debate and more a witch hunt. Knock it on the head lads, there's no need for it.
You're right, it's not a Theology debate but it never was in fairness...the whole point of the original C&VG article was that, the biggest game for the PS3 since MGS has now been delayed the world over because of an inoffensive song that a few from Islam "might" find offensive, so because of the semtex few, everyone misses out, bloody madness!
The bible is DEFINITELY not acknowledged or believed by the Christian faith to be accepted as written "by man", if so, the whole religion would collapse as it's believed to be true word from God via his only Son Christ and the Apostles as his witnesses.
The bible is absolutely aknowledged to be written by man. It is a retelling of events. The bible is not claimed to be written by god or jesus, or dicatated to anyone by them.
The koran is stated to be the absolute word of god. Instructions by god on how to live your life dictated to mohammed through visions. This is a fundamental difference
The bible is DEFINITELY not acknowledged or believed by the Christian faith to be accepted as written "by man", if so, the whole religion would collapse as it's believed to be true word from God via his only Son Christ and the Apostles as his witnesses.
The bible is absolutely aknowledged to be written by man. It is a retelling of events. The bible is not claimed to be written by god or jesus, or dicatated to anyone by them.
The koran is stated to be the absolute word of god. Instructions by god on how to live your life dictated to mohammed through visions. This is a fundamental difference
And who was Mohammed then?... A "man" with his visions/stories and "rules"!...Of course, Jesus was not only a "man" but THE Son of God according to the bible, who passed his teachings on DIRECTLY from the main source and not through dreams.
The problem is these novels have all been adapted over the centuries to suit the current time, only problem is, the West have had enough of fairy stories about dreams, resurrection and 95 virgins for bombing perfectly innocent people and going to Nirvana about their everyday life, time for a reality check!
Nintendo had to this years ago with Ocarina of Time. The original Fire Temple soundtrack had Islamic chanting in it. The original production run had it but they removed them from the shelves and replaced them with Gregorian chanting if I remember correctly.
Nintendo had to this years ago with Ocarina of Time. The original Fire Temple soundtrack had Islamic chanting in it. The original production run had it but they removed them from the shelves and replaced them with Gregorian chanting if I remember correctly.
If smoking was to be stopped then we'd all have to pay more income and council tax.
The Government wouldnt be able to cope with the loss in revenue.
No trust me they wouldn't, they'd raise "Inheritance tax" or the duty on Alcohol, or raise VAT to 19%...truth is, smoking is a disgusting, anti-social habit that serves no purpose other than to placate the smoker, and in company, turn a pleasant night into a bad one and not forgetting killing the non-smoker as well.
Bill Hicks had a word for people like you...
I can see the Cvg forums are a friend of the Islamic faith. It is nice to see such levels of tolerance nowadays. I wonder if this is how late 20s / early 30s Germany felt like?
I wonder what the chances of anyone who bought the game acctually noticing these words takin from the qaran. plus noone cares about the music just give me the game.
argh. this is pathetic y are the lbp devs apologising. this is outreagous. cos ther are a couple of phrases in the qu'ran in a bloody song. resistance wasnt banned coz there is a level were u shoot other people in a church. cud u imagine if they had a level were u shoot people in a mosque. . . . .exactly. it makes me sick. this county and its people need to sort its priority's out. everyone needs to stop living in fear bfore its too late and who knows what then. wen will it stop in some parts of london ur not allowed to put out the st georg's cross on st georg's day. who know's mayb there wil b no christian schools at this rate. PATHETIC people in the govenment need to get a grip
If smoking was to be stopped then we'd all have to pay more income and council tax.
The Government wouldnt be able to cope with the loss in revenue.
No trust me they wouldn't, they'd raise "Inheritance tax" or the duty on Alcohol, or raise VAT to 19%...truth is, smoking is a disgusting, anti-social habit that serves no purpose other than to placate the smoker, and in company, turn a pleasant night into a bad one and not forgetting killing the non-smoker as well.
Bill Hicks had a word for people like you...
I can see the Cvg forums are a friend of the Islamic faith. It is nice to see such levels of tolerance nowadays. I wonder if this is how late 20s / early 30s Germany felt like?
This is aimed at Tony Bs post but i cant find it on its own.
It doesnt really make an difference, whether its income tax, duty on alcohol etc. it'll make things more expensive for non smokers.
And anyway, you inhale more smoke when you walk down the street because of all the exhaust fumes than you ever would from passive smoking apparently.
Im not even a smoker, but Ive seen a fair bit of evidence to back that up.
honestly right, this is so stupid it's untrue. you've all gone so off track. this is about a game, not religion and beliefs. most of you are talking f**king s**t, about islamics blowing s**t up (hello, there are some islamics who don't do that, probably about 95%)
... the fact is that making games can be controversial, the guys making LBP should have known that doing something from a holy book would get on some peoples bad sides.
the truth is that it's only being delayed a few weeks. there are plenty of great games coming out before LBP so just enjoy the wave of games coming.
ryo or whatever your name is. it's not the koran, get your facts straight god damnit. don't go talking s**t when can't even f**king spell. how the hell do you know if prophet mohammed was a pedo. did he try it on with you or something? stop talking f**king s**t and stay on topic of games, or go and post in some political forum elsewhere. f**k.
I dont think anyones saying anything offensive, its just a reasoned debate.
Calling the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) a paedophile, and claimed he raped his wife is pretty offensive. To call him a murderer is also pretty bad as well. To the guy who posted that garbage: I wonder if people would call Churchill a murderer? Because by the same token, you could call him a murderer. You could call our war heroes murderers too. But no one would, as it would be a completely moronic thing to say.
have the muslims ever said sorry for crusading spain and then attacking france no they have not because the crusades where in respones to that
Can you tell me which groups in the past have apologised for warfare? The Romans didn't. Napoleon's lot didn't. Has Britain ever apologised for the way it colonised the Commonwealth? I don't think the Americans have even ever apologised for Vietnam. And I certainly haven't heard any apologies for the mass bombing and civilian death the Americans and British troops have unloaded upon Afghanistan and Iraq. I don't know why I'm explaining any of this to you, as it has absolutely nothing to do with LittleBigPlanet being delayed.
As you've gathered, I am a Muslim. And as far as I'm concerned, I would not have been offended at all by the music/lyrics. Incidentally, those lines in the Qur'an actually talk about the mortality of man. The rest of the passage tries to teach us to be humble in what we do, and to cherish our loved ones as we (and they) won't be around forever. It's actually quite a nice passage, but out of context it can sound pretty heavy.
So on topic - I would not have been offended by LBP being released in its current form. I think it's great that verses of the Qur'an would've been associated by something which is enjoyed by Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Sony, in it's infinite wisdom, has decided to pull the game for a short while. I see why they've done it, but they really could have given the Muslim community some credit and seen how we react. I find it sad though that so many people have being saying such awful things about a religion they barely understand, all because of a game delay. Surely the blame does not rely with Islam, but with the QA testing?
As an example, I give you Assassin's Creed. A game which borrows heavily from religious text and mythology, yet no-one was offended. Anyway, please get a grip people. Sony aren't (too) stupid - I'm sure you'll have LBP before Xmas.
All games featuring rooms with crossbeams in have been delayed due to their resemblance to a crucifix. All the relevant parties involved would like to express their sincere apologies to anyone who might be offended by a hitherto unnoticed issue. We would like to reassure all potential buyers that the responsible programmers have all been forced to attend diversity training courses in the hope that this does not happen again and to reinforce that it is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, to possibly ever express any opinion, whether by accident or not, that might ever possibly offend any sector of society."
Next year's headlines: "Resident Evil 6 cancelled due to offending the living-impaired." "Wolfenstein banned after protest by neo-nazis." "Viva Pinata recalled from stores following objections from animal-cruelty lobbyists about players being able to bash open virtual creatures resembling endangered species." "Entire gaming industry shut down following complaints from the Daily Mail."
ryo or whatever your name is. it's not the koran, get your facts straight god damnit. don't go talking s**t when can't even f**king spell. how the hell do you know if prophet mohammed was a pedo. did he try it on with you or something? stop talking f**king s**t and stay on topic of games, or go and post in some political forum elsewhere. f**k.
You absolute moron, it is you that needs to get your facts straight. Mohammed married a 6 year old and had sex with her when she was 9, is that not paedophilia? I believe he was around 40 or 50 at the time. Her name was Aisha, google it or wiki it u cretin.
You need to do your research before you attempt to defend something u clearly know nothing about. Idiot.
Calling the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) a paedophile, and claimed he raped his wife is pretty offensive. To call him a murderer is also pretty bad as well. To the guy who posted that garbage: I wonder if people would call Churchill a murderer? Because by the same token, you could call him a murderer. You could call our war heroes murderers too. But no one would, as it would be a completely moronic thing to say.
GOOGLE MOHAMMED AND AISHA!
Mohammed married her when she was 6, and had sex with her when she was 9. This is even written in the koran!!!
Is a man of 40 or 50 having sex with a 9 year old child not paedophilia?
Do u think this 9 year old child would have willingly had sex with a 50 year old man?
Mohammed WAS a paedophile, and clearly he did rape her.
The fact that you yourself a muslim were not aware of this is the very problem. This is not a personal attack on you.
The vast majority of muslims are decent people, i have friends who are muslim. But that doesnt change the fact that islam is a violent, barbaric cult. The distinction must be drawn. We cant say 'islam is a religion of peace as i know muslims who are peaceful'. It must be judged on its holy book and its prophet.
Hmmm... this isn't going to make muslims popular though is it?
Not that it's their 'fault' as such. But, you get my drift?
What annyos me is that it's not like the words used are i dunno, in a somehow offensive, or describing the religion, or the quaran in a bad way, it's just using words from the book. I know some say it's offensive, because your using words from 'the holy book', but it's not like they are now owned by the quaran, or muslims is it? I'd understand if the game was delayed in mostly muslims countries, but seeing as probably all of europe (?) isn't, then there shouldn't be a problem. Now, i know some will argue, well, that's unfair, as there's muslims in non - muslim countries too, and it's not just about the people living in the country, it's the idea too. Well, i used to live in Kuwait and hearing 'Allah akbar' 5 times a day didn't make me much happier, but you know what i did, i f**king dealt with it. And as should the muslims too. I guess MM just made sure it wouldn't come down to that.
Also, surely the problem would be with the song itself, so why isn't it the song getting 'banned', or rather, why didn't that happen previously? I bet it's because the singer is muslim or something. And LBP isn't. Which it can't be. So it's just unfair! I suppose, at the end of the day, it's not like Media Molecule were forced into doing what they did, they just outright shat themselves and thought it was worth the hassle. Which i sort of can't blame them for.
gees, i was lookin forward to this game too, but guys no need to take jabs at muslims, im a muslim, im a gamer, but some of the BS im readin on here is shockin, it sucks but dont blame muslims, dont be sooo narrow minded!
Oh and FYI Hitler was a Christian, i dont go around judgin christians, most of my mates are christians, dont pick a ridiculous topic, to take the p**s out of muslims, personally i dont see a problem with it, and the game should have been released as planned, theres the thoughts of a true muslim, the papers can quote me on that!
Quite literally; "holy crap". This is the most active I have seen the comments in an age. Without wanting to get into whether the Islaminc faith is good or bad, and whether or not the Sally Army are a bunch of sadists. I'd just like to say quite simply I am disappointed that this game has been delayed, and as a this moment as I type for an undisclosed period. Hopefully it will still be out for Christmas. It was and is a game my son and I were really looking forward to playing together and designing a level or two. Still it will come out eventually, and as has been said several times before, it is not like we have a shortage of AAA titles coming out over the next three weeks is it.
Mohammed married her when she was 6, and had sex with her when she was 9. This is even written in the koran!!!
Is a man of 40 or 50 having sex with a 9 year old child not paedophilia?
Do u think this 9 year old child would have willingly had sex with a 50 year old man?
Mohammed WAS a paedophile, and clearly he did rape her.
The fact that you yourself a muslim were not aware of this is the very problem. This is not a personal attack on you.
Thank you for not personally attacking me, but I never said that I didn't know about the Prophet (PBUH) marrying a 6 year old. I'm quite well read up on Islam and my beliefs, I don't need to Google it when I can just read the Qur'an. My point about him not being a paedophile is that back then getting married to youngsters was a totally normal thing. Back then, it wouldn't have been seen as socially unacceptable or anything like that. But also, think about it: if he was a paedophile/rapist would he waited 3 years to have sex with her? Would he have even bothered marrying her first?
Though I doubt you thought about that, as it's much easier to repeatedly quote what Google tells you. Why don't you read the Qur'an and quote that? There are English translations of it, you know.
The vast majority of muslims are decent people, i have friends who are muslim. But that doesnt change the fact that islam is a violent, barbaric cult. The distinction must be drawn. We cant say 'islam is a religion of peace as i know muslims who are peaceful'. It must be judged on its holy book and its prophet.
Its Holy Book preaches nothing but peace. Again, why don't you read it? A few home truths: suicide is forbidden, so all those who do it are committing one of the biggest sins possible. Also, Islam never ever condones the killing of innocents.
The Prophet did indeed lead the first group of Muslims in battle, and blood was shed. But read up, and you'll find it was done in self-defence - early Muslims were being targeted and killed as city leaders did not want Islam to replace the idols and statues they worshipped.
If Islam was a violent "cult", wouldn't all Muslims now be waging war on everyone and anyone? If you want a distinction to be drawn, how about this: a very small percentage of Muslims are idiots and are lunatics, who believe that blowing themselves up and innocents is what it means to be a good Muslim. Then on the other side of that line are Muslims who bring no harm on their fellow citizens (Muslims and non-Muslims). These Muslims live modest lives in general, not drinking and not taking drugs. Like myself, these Muslims lead very very similar lives to other Britons and Europeans. We play games, watch films, listen to music, play sports. Go to college, university, work 9-5, get married, have kids and die.
I really hope that you will do some research into Islam, I doubt you will, but I hope you do.
The classic argument between free speech and not offending people. I think people should just put in what they want, then sticker it with "may be offensive to muslims/christians/jews etc", then you can't complain.
I agree though, we shouldn't have to pander to this kind of stuff. It's not as if they are attacking Mohammed or the faith. The fraction of muslims who would actually take violent actions in protest to this game is tiny; yet when it comes down to it, people act like this because they don't want to be attacked - they couldn't give a toss about offence. If this was a USA gaming site, the anti muslim sentiment on here though would be off the chart.
And, I haven't read the bible for some time, but I thought the new testament was gospels ''according' to the disciples. Not them repeating God's word.
We will alsways have these problems with organised religion. I have no problems with people's faith (I am christened, but not a christian), but organised religion is the one true evil in this world. It's funny how I can say that and offend everybody who is religious, but not say offensive things that are particualr to a given religion.
I don't remember Hindus kicking up a stink with the Cow Launcher in South Park on the 64.
Mohammed married her when she was 6, and had sex with her when she was 9. This is even written in the koran!!!
Is a man of 40 or 50 having sex with a 9 year old child not paedophilia?
Do u think this 9 year old child would have willingly had sex with a 50 year old man?
Mohammed WAS a paedophile, and clearly he did rape her.
The fact that you yourself a muslim were not aware of this is the very problem. This is not a personal attack on you.
Thank you for not personally attacking me, but I never said that I didn't know about the Prophet (PBUH) marrying a 6 year old. I'm quite well read up on Islam and my beliefs, I don't need to Google it when I can just read the Qur'an. My point about him not being a paedophile is that back then getting married to youngsters was a totally normal thing. Back then, it wouldn't have been seen as socially unacceptable or anything like that. But also, think about it: if he was a paedophile/rapist would he waited 3 years to have sex with her? Would he have even bothered marrying her first?
Though I doubt you thought about that, as it's much easier to repeatedly quote what Google tells you. Why don't you read the Qur'an and quote that? There are English translations of it, you know.
The vast majority of muslims are decent people, i have friends who are muslim. But that doesnt change the fact that islam is a violent, barbaric cult. The distinction must be drawn. We cant say 'islam is a religion of peace as i know muslims who are peaceful'. It must be judged on its holy book and its prophet.
Its Holy Book preaches nothing but peace. Again, why don't you read it? A few home truths: suicide is forbidden, so all those who do it are committing one of the biggest sins possible. Also, Islam never ever condones the killing of innocents.
The Prophet did indeed lead the first group of Muslims in battle, and blood was shed. But read up, and you'll find it was done in self-defence - early Muslims were being targeted and killed as city leaders did not want Islam to replace the idols and statues they worshipped.
If Islam was a violent "cult", wouldn't all Muslims now be waging war on everyone and anyone? If you want a distinction to be drawn, how about this: a very small percentage of Muslims are idiots and are lunatics, who believe that blowing themselves up and innocents is what it means to be a good Muslim. Then on the other side of that line are Muslims who bring no harm on their fellow citizens (Muslims and non-Muslims). These Muslims live modest lives in general, not drinking and not taking drugs. Like myself, these Muslims lead very very similar lives to other Britons and Europeans. We play games, watch films, listen to music, play sports. Go to college, university, work 9-5, get married, have kids and die.
I really hope that you will do some research into Islam, I doubt you will, but I hope you do.
Firstly id like to say i appreciate ur willingness to debate this in a rational manner. Religion is a sensitive issue and people can take criticism of it as a personal attack, which this is not.
Id like to raise a few points. Firstly, my knowledge of islam is not limited to me googling it for 5 mins, i made that point as some of the facts are not well known, such as mohammed marrying a 6 year old. So for others reading, googling it would be the quickest way to see that its true and im not making it up as an earlier forum post claimed.
Regardless of what may or may not have been acceptable in certain parts of the world hundreds of years ago, no rational, moral person would think that a 50 year old man having sex with a 9 year old child was anything other than disgusting.
On the issue of rape, do u honestly believe that this child wanted to have sex with a 50 year old man. If she didnt protest it would have been out of fear. The poor child would have been terrified whilst she was being horribly violated.
The koran does not preach nothing but peace, there are numerous passages instructing the murder or conversion or subjugation (dhimmitude) of non believers.
Your last point is valid, but i have already aknowledged that. I never said all muslims are terrorists etc. The vast majority, such as yourself are decent members of society. Most are not even muslims through choice, they are as their parents are, and they were raised that way, like with all religions.
It doesnt change the fact that islam itself, mohammed, and the koran instruct and encourage the waging of war against non-believers.
I think a lot of you have all brought up some good points.
Truth be told, seeing as none of us have are over 2000 years old, none of us ACTUALLY know the whole background, but that's neither here nor there.
Now, i'd fully wish to respect muslims, but if it were any other religion i doubt we'd have quite the same situation. The whole Manchester Cathedral, well, it was all ok for everyone to tell the church to f**k right off. I notice how that incident was the church itself, rather than random christians, where as this seems to be the other way round. Regardless, i can't actually see any christians, or catholics ect. having too much of a grumble about it, if the situation where something from the bible. It's quite sad really that i've come to that conclusion, but i really believe that's the case. Because, let's be honest, i'd be very worried about a persons mental health if they were genuinely offended by a song (that had already been written, and wasn't created by Sony) that had words (not offensive words, let us not forget this.) that came from the Quaran.
I just think some of us are looking a little too deep into this, to the point that we're talking about things that vaguely relate to the faith. Terrorism etc. It's neither here nor there.
The bottom line is that it was just a very small and unoffensive reference to religion within the game, and so to be offended by that is just beyond my, and most other peoples, understanding.
I mean what is offensive about it?
There is simply nothing even remotley offensive about it. Why do some people constantly have to moan and nitpick about anything and everything?
I have total respect for peoples religious beliefs, but kicking up a stink about this is absolutley insane.
I would imagine most Muslims cringe at this kind of stuff. I know I would if I was one.
Calling the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) a paedophile, and claimed he raped his wife is pretty offensive. To call him a murderer is also pretty bad as well. To the guy who posted that garbage: I wonder if people would call Churchill a murderer? Because by the same token, you could call him a murderer. You could call our war heroes murderers too. But no one would, as it would be a completely moronic thing to say.
GOOGLE MOHAMMED AND AISHA!
Mohammed married her when she was 6, and had sex with her when she was 9. This is even written in the koran!!!
Is a man of 40 or 50 having sex with a 9 year old child not paedophilia?
Do u think this 9 year old child would have willingly had sex with a 50 year old man?
Mohammed WAS a paedophile, and clearly he did rape her.
The fact that you yourself a muslim were not aware of this is the very problem. This is not a personal attack on you.
The vast majority of muslims are decent people, i have friends who are muslim. But that doesnt change the fact that islam is a violent, barbaric cult. The distinction must be drawn. We cant say 'islam is a religion of peace as i know muslims who are peaceful'. It must be judged on its holy book and its prophet.
get a life and stop preaching, i'd rather google some porn you pillock.
Id like to raise a few points. Firstly, my knowledge of islam is not limited to me googling it for 5 mins, i made that point as some of the facts are not well known, such as mohammed marrying a 6 year old. So for others reading, googling it would be the quickest way to see that its true and im not making it up as an earlier forum post claimed.
Regardless of what may or may not have been acceptable in certain parts of the world hundreds of years ago, no rational, moral person would think that a 50 year old man having sex with a 9 year old child was anything other than disgusting.
On the issue of rape, do u honestly believe that this child wanted to have sex with a 50 year old man. If she didnt protest it would have been out of fear. The poor child would have been terrified whilst she was being horribly violated.
You should learn to google and wiki yourself.
The age of consent in this country (England) was 12 until only 130 years ago (When it was raised to 13), and girls were considered marriagable at that age. Shocking and immoral, huh? Paedo-beasts running free with the law's blessing? It was legal and normal back then, and nobody thought twice about it.
Mohammed having sex with a 9-year would have been pretty normal at the time and is only offensive to you because that's your culture and beliefs, just like singing phrases from the Qur'an is shocking to Muslims worldwide because of their culture and beliefs.
Id like to raise a few points. Firstly, my knowledge of islam is not limited to me googling it for 5 mins, i made that point as some of the facts are not well known, such as mohammed marrying a 6 year old. So for others reading, googling it would be the quickest way to see that its true and im not making it up as an earlier forum post claimed.
Regardless of what may or may not have been acceptable in certain parts of the world hundreds of years ago, no rational, moral person would think that a 50 year old man having sex with a 9 year old child was anything other than disgusting.
On the issue of rape, do u honestly believe that this child wanted to have sex with a 50 year old man. If she didnt protest it would have been out of fear. The poor child would have been terrified whilst she was being horribly violated.
You should learn to google and wiki yourself.
The age of consent in this country (England) was 12 until only 130 years ago (When it was raised to 13), and girls were considered marriagable at that age. Shocking and immoral, huh? Paedo-beasts running free with the law's blessing? It was legal and normal back then, and nobody thought twice about it.
Mohammed having sex with a 9-year would have been pretty normal at the time and is only offensive to you because that's your culture and beliefs, just like singing phrases from the Qur'an is shocking to Muslims worldwide because of their culture and beliefs.
I just need someone explain to me why singing parts of the Quran is offensive?
Why didnt these same Muslims make a fuss when the song was first released?
Why is it offensive when ts in a video game, but not on cd?
It must be judged on its holy book and its prophet.
Wow.....just wow.
Amazing how pompous, arrogant and amazingly stupid your entire post sounded. Sensationalist bulls**t never helped anyone, especially during a debate that people would assume should be informed. If we judged every religion on their prophets and holy books, every religion would in some way become anathema to everyone. Get a clue and a life.
atheism is clearly the way forward! strange direction these posts have gone, youd think people would just have a bit of a moan about a hugeley anticipated game being delayed
To be an atheist is to be 100% sure that there is no God. I dont think anyone can prove that and so being agnostic is really the only sensible thing in my view.
I dont believe in any religion, but I wouldnt count out the possibility of some kind of creator.
As a species we just dont know enough about the universe to discount it.
I think a lot of you have all brought up some good points.
Truth be told, seeing as none of us have are over 2000 years old, none of us ACTUALLY know the whole background, but that's neither here nor there.
Now, i'd fully wish to respect muslims, but if it were any other religion i doubt we'd have quite the same situation. The whole Manchester Cathedral, well, it was all ok for everyone to tell the church to f**k right off. I notice how that incident was the church itself, rather than random christians, where as this seems to be the other way round. Regardless, i can't actually see any christians, or catholics ect. having too much of a grumble about it, if the situation where something from the bible. It's quite sad really that i've come to that conclusion, but i really believe that's the case. Because, let's be honest, i'd be very worried about a persons mental health if they were genuinely offended by a song (that had already been written, and wasn't created by Sony) that had words (not offensive words, let us not forget this.) that came from the Quaran.
I just think some of us are looking a little too deep into this, to the point that we're talking about things that vaguely relate to the faith. Terrorism etc. It's neither here nor there.
Id like to raise a few points. Firstly, my knowledge of islam is not limited to me googling it for 5 mins, i made that point as some of the facts are not well known, such as mohammed marrying a 6 year old. So for others reading, googling it would be the quickest way to see that its true and im not making it up as an earlier forum post claimed.
Regardless of what may or may not have been acceptable in certain parts of the world hundreds of years ago, no rational, moral person would think that a 50 year old man having sex with a 9 year old child was anything other than disgusting.
On the issue of rape, do u honestly believe that this child wanted to have sex with a 50 year old man. If she didnt protest it would have been out of fear. The poor child would have been terrified whilst she was being horribly violated.
You should learn to google and wiki yourself.
The age of consent in this country (England) was 12 until only 130 years ago (When it was raised to 13), and girls were considered marriagable at that age. Shocking and immoral, huh? Paedo-beasts running free with the law's blessing? It was legal and normal back then, and nobody thought twice about it.
Mohammed having sex with a 9-year would have been pretty normal at the time and is only offensive to you because that's your culture and beliefs, just like singing phrases from the Qur'an is shocking to Muslims worldwide because of their culture and beliefs.
Having sex with a 9 year old child is disgusting and evil whatever time period or whatever the acceptability of it at the time.
I didn't actually know that part of the religion, but finding out that is in there is shocking and gives me another piece of ammo for my Right-Wing handbook.
This game is the biggest pile of crap anyway so how cares, ps3 really struggling if this is a ps3 must buy
Wahey, a post about the game...
Even though i dont have a PS3 this has been the game to make me consider changing that. Dropping that much money for 1 game though... (Although GTI Club & Time Crisis are tempting)
So all of you guys talking BS about religion which ok has maybe affected the release of LBP if what sony has said is true, but the main issue stands at when will the game actually be given a release date??? I know theres like one site that has said November 14th but i dunno, id put money on that this game was already stocked in most shops worldwide ready for the release this coming friday (especially since jonathon ross was bragging about how much his son is enjoying playing LBP) so sony would have to pull all the games back, remove or edit the song causing a mass religious debate and then get the code back onto disc and then back into shops....is all that possible by November 14th or is someone just taking a wild guess?
It doesnt really make an difference, whether its income tax, duty on alcohol etc. it'll make things more expensive for non smokers.
So?
And anyway, you inhale more smoke when you walk down the street because of all the exhaust fumes than you ever would from passive smoking apparently.
Im not even a smoker, but Ive seen a fair bit of evidence to back that up.
Duh, it's already been stated that motor vehicles are a necessary "evil" in this world. Smoking on the other hand is not. Besides so what if that is the case anyway, does that mean they should allow smoking in offices and other workplaces and just say well there's pollution outside so what difference does it make? might as well get lung cancer here as well? What a stupid argument.
Besides I doubt that statistic would hold up for someone who works in a pub or nightclub and is exposed to second hand smoke for many hours at a time.
Anyone who thinks the current smoking laws are "discrimination" is basically a selfish a*sehole.
And LBP delay? who cares really, 3 weeks won't kill anyone, (second hand smoke will though).
It doesnt really make an difference, whether its income tax, duty on alcohol etc. it'll make things more expensive for non smokers.
So?
And anyway, you inhale more smoke when you walk down the street because of all the exhaust fumes than you ever would from passive smoking apparently.
Im not even a smoker, but Ive seen a fair bit of evidence to back that up.
Duh, it's already been stated that motor vehicles are a necessary "evil" in this world. Smoking on the other hand is not. Besides so what if that is the case anyway, does that mean they should allow smoking in offices and other workplaces and just say well there's pollution outside so what difference does it make? might as well get lung cancer here as well? What a stupid argument.
Besides I doubt that statistic would hold up for someone who works in a pub or nightclub and is exposed to second hand smoke for many hours at a time.
Anyone who thinks the current smoking laws are "discrimination" is basically a selfish a*sehole.
And LBP delay? who cares really, 3 weeks won't kill anyone, (second hand smoke will though).
I dont actually even smoke myself, but I understand that other people have the right to.
Passive smoking has been scientifically proven to have a very small effect on people so to point it out like its the worlds biggest problem is a stupid point in my eyes.
What about Alcohol? You cant passively absorb alcohol, but you can be affected by the consequences of it. Plenty of innocent people have been killed in drunken riots and by drink driving so in that sense its exactly the same, actually its much worse. Ive never heard of a little kid getting run over because the person driving was smoking a fag!
If cars are a 'necessary evil' in the world but you want to stop people inhaling smoke, then why arent you campaigning for cleaner fuels? Petrol and diesel are absolutley NOT necessary. We have the technology for hydrogen based electric cars nowadays, so why arent you shouting at all the rich people and corporations that are holding this Idea up?
As someone said earlier, you are going to die.
It doesnt really matter how. At some point you will die, and if we can put up with the massive amount of fumes from cars and factories that we do everyday, then a little bit of smoking isnt really gonna make that much of a difference.
[ I dont actually even smoke myself, but I understand that other people have the right to.
Passive smoking has been scientifically proven to have a very small effect on people so to point it out like its the worlds biggest problem is a stupid point in my eyes.
What about Alcohol? You cant passively absorb alcohol, but you can be affected by the consequences of it. Plenty of innocent people have been killed in drunken riots and by drink driving so in that sense its exactly the same, actually its much worse. Ive never heard of a little kid getting run over because the person driving was smoking a fag!
If cars are a 'necessary evil' in the world but you want to stop people inhaling smoke, then why arent you campaigning for cleaner fuels? Petrol and diesel are absolutley NOT necessary. We have the technology for hydrogen based electric cars nowadays, so why arent you shouting at all the rich people and corporations that are holding this Idea up?
As someone said earlier, you are going to die.
It doesnt really matter how. At some point you will die, and if we can put up with the massive amount of fumes from cars and factories that we do everyday, then a little bit of smoking isnt really gonna make that much of a difference.
Yes people have the right to smoke, just as I have the right now to go into a pub or club, or my workplace and not have to breathe in second hand smoke, so we all have rights see?
Got any links to this proof about passive smoking? Might want to send them to say Roy Castle's family maybe? There are plenty of studies that prove exposure to second-hand smoke is very harmful.
You are probably thinking about occasional exposure, which is unlikely to cause anyone much harm. Nobody is pointing it out as the world's biggest problem? It is simply a good thing that non-smokers are protected from second -hand smoke, if you can't see that cos you think smoker's should have the right to pollute these environments, make everywhere stink of smoke then I feel sorry for you.
You are actually arguing for the rights of a group of people whose activity physicaly harms others, not to mention causes other people to go home from a night out reeking of cigarettes, against the rights of people who aren't doing anything to affect others? That is very strange.
Regarding cars, actually I couldn't care less if they replaced petrol and diesel with cleaner alternatives, I don't even drive. My point is at this time there aren't those options readily available to the consumer. If they decided to ban cars that were less eco friendly, I wouldn't care.
Re: drink driving, in case you hadn't realised this is illegal. So I don't really know what your point is there. There is a law to prevent people from drink driving, there is a law to prevent people from smoking in pubs, same thing in both cases you will have idiots who break these laws.
Yes I am going to die, by that logic you might as well make murder legal, what a stupid point! Well you know, you are going to die anyway so if someone wants to breathe posionous smoke in your face what the hell, if someone want to stab you in the heart, don't matter you're going to die one day.
You don't seem to understand that the factories and cars that pollute the atmosphere are part of a industry that has been built up over many years and only now we are realising the damage and making changes, do you want them to close them all down overnight and ban cars? Moving to a "greener" way if life will take time and it is happening.
A smoker has the right to smoke, he simply does not have the right to harm others with that smoke, I don't get why you can't see that as a good thing????
Thank god people like you don't don't have to make decisions about the welfare of the population of this country. You would say everyone is going to die one day so remove all laws and have a massive free-for all where no-one gives a crap about what they do.
To be an Atheist isn't to say you know 100% that there isn't a God, that would be an Agnostic. I believe the chances of God existing are so minimal I disregard it as untrue. The problem with Atheism is that it offers no definitive answers. It takes a much bigger leap of faith to admit we know absolutely nothing about the origins of life than it does to believe in a Religion.
Anyway I'm gutted this is delayed and believe Sony should have grew some hair on their balls and gone ahead with the game.
Id like to raise a few points. Firstly, my knowledge of islam is not limited to me googling it for 5 mins, i made that point as some of the facts are not well known, such as mohammed marrying a 6 year old. So for others reading, googling it would be the quickest way to see that its true and im not making it up as an earlier forum post claimed.
Regardless of what may or may not have been acceptable in certain parts of the world hundreds of years ago, no rational, moral person would think that a 50 year old man having sex with a 9 year old child was anything other than disgusting.
On the issue of rape, do u honestly believe that this child wanted to have sex with a 50 year old man. If she didnt protest it would have been out of fear. The poor child would have been terrified whilst she was being horribly violated.
You should learn to google and wiki yourself.
The age of consent in this country (England) was 12 until only 130 years ago (When it was raised to 13), and girls were considered marriagable at that age. Shocking and immoral, huh? Paedo-beasts running free with the law's blessing? It was legal and normal back then, and nobody thought twice about it.
Mohammed having sex with a 9-year would have been pretty normal at the time and is only offensive to you because that's your culture and beliefs, just like singing phrases from the Qur'an is shocking to Muslims worldwide because of their culture and beliefs.
Having sex with a 9 year old child is disgusting and evil whatever time period or whatever the acceptability of it at the time.
I didn't actually know that part of the religion, but finding out that is in there is shocking and gives me another piece of ammo for my Right-Wing handbook.
Thanks.
Nigel_De Jong, you are completely correct. Thank god someone has some common sense.
Velocitar, how anyone can defend a 50 year old man having sex with a 9 year old child is unknown to me. Regardless of when and where, it is disgusting and vile.
And your point is irrelevant anyway. We in this country do not look to a law 130 years old as a model as to how to live our life. Muslims, however, totally revere mohammed and look to him as a way to live their life.
Firstly, what on earth does the biography of the Prophet Mohhammad have to do with LBP or why the release is delayed? Religeous tolerance is one of the few things we can be proud of in this country. You can't, however, pick and choose which religeon to tolerate.
As for the topic, I believe kettiby has it correct. This is not about Muslims overeacting - this is about Sony over-reacting. A lot of the comments I'm hearing on these boards are nothing short of racism and Islamaphobia stirred up by our tabloid press such as the Sun and the Daily Mail. I'm an Atheist, but I felt compelled to make this post after reading the bile which was posted here. It seems that Muslims have became the new Jews, reviled and blamed by everyone if something in society goes awry. Housing shortage? Bloody Muslims. Terrorissm? Bloody Muslims. People have to try to be a little more open minded and a little more closed mouth on the subject until they understand it better. The game being held back for a week or two isn't due to Islam but rather due to overanxious companies.
"WE apoligise but LittlebigPlanet and all other related hardware software and all other Sony products have been taken of of the shelves and are going to be destroyed, we would also appreciate it if all could send their sony products to us to dispose of. We are dping this because it has recently come top lighht that all of our technology includes the letters "a", "e", "i", "o" and "u" are somewhere in it or related to it. We have bneen informed by a christian that the letters "a", "e", "i", "o" and "u" is in the bible and it is blasphemy to take anything from the bible and use it in anything else. Again we apoligise for any inconveniance that ensues.
Firstly, what on earth does the biography of the Prophet Mohhammad have to do with LBP or why the release is delayed? Religeous tolerance is one of the few things we can be proud of in this country. You can't, however, pick and choose which religeon to tolerate.
As for the topic, I believe kettiby has it correct. This is not about Muslims overeacting - this is about Sony over-reacting. A lot of the comments I'm hearing on these boards are nothing short of racism and Islamaphobia stirred up by our tabloid press such as the Sun and the Daily Mail. I'm an Atheist, but I felt compelled to make this post after reading the bile which was posted here. It seems that Muslims have became the new Jews, reviled and blamed by everyone if something in society goes awry. Housing shortage? Bloody Muslims. Terrorissm? Bloody Muslims. People have to try to be a little more open minded and a little more closed mouth on the subject until they understand it better. The game being held back for a week or two isn't due to Islam but rather due to overanxious companies.
this dude has more inteligence then most of you combined!
My very own world religion dictates that all women under 30 must go topless, and beer must be served free in all towns over 5.000 population.
If these demands are not respected, I will kill everyone.
It's time for the reverse inquisition. Malleus Maleficarum right back at them. Doesn't matter which of the middleeastern one-true-God-religions it is, they're equally outdated. This is 2008. Stop the madness.
A game's being delayed. Big deal! There are plenty of games coming out now and delays happen.
You can't blame Sony for being hyper-sensitive.. it's A FAMILY GAME!!!! Of course they don't want negative press at the mo for it, they want POSITIVE sales!
To be an Atheist isn't to say you know 100% that there isn't a God, that would be an Agnostic.
That most certainly would *not* be an agnostic. Agnostics do not deny the mere possibility of a god (or gods); rather they believe that the existence of a deity can be neither proved nor disproved.
Some agnostics think there that such proof is inherently impossible to obtain, while others believe that perhaps one day we will have a definite answer.
Similarly, some agnostics believe there most likely is a god (agnostic theism), and others believe there probably isn't (agnostic atheism), but all share the belief that we (currently) can't and won't know until we die.
As for atheists, again there's more than one type. There are weak atheists (also known as negative atheists), who disbelieve in a deity or deities, and strong atheists (also known as positive atheists), who deny even the possibility of a god or gods.
In more simple terms, atheism could be said to include both the non-religious and the anti-religious.
[ I dont actually even smoke myself, but I understand that other people have the right to.
Passive smoking has been scientifically proven to have a very small effect on people so to point it out like its the worlds biggest problem is a stupid point in my eyes.
What about Alcohol? You cant passively absorb alcohol, but you can be affected by the consequences of it. Plenty of innocent people have been killed in drunken riots and by drink driving so in that sense its exactly the same, actually its much worse. Ive never heard of a little kid getting run over because the person driving was smoking a fag!
If cars are a 'necessary evil' in the world but you want to stop people inhaling smoke, then why arent you campaigning for cleaner fuels? Petrol and diesel are absolutley NOT necessary. We have the technology for hydrogen based electric cars nowadays, so why arent you shouting at all the rich people and corporations that are holding this Idea up?
As someone said earlier, you are going to die.
It doesnt really matter how. At some point you will die, and if we can put up with the massive amount of fumes from cars and factories that we do everyday, then a little bit of smoking isnt really gonna make that much of a difference.
Yes people have the right to smoke, just as I have the right now to go into a pub or club, or my workplace and not have to breathe in second hand smoke, so we all have rights see?
Got any links to this proof about passive smoking? Might want to send them to say Roy Castle's family maybe? There are plenty of studies that prove exposure to second-hand smoke is very harmful.
You are probably thinking about occasional exposure, which is unlikely to cause anyone much harm. Nobody is pointing it out as the world's biggest problem? It is simply a good thing that non-smokers are protected from second -hand smoke, if you can't see that cos you think smoker's should have the right to pollute these environments, make everywhere stink of smoke then I feel sorry for you.
You are actually arguing for the rights of a group of people whose activity physicaly harms others, not to mention causes other people to go home from a night out reeking of cigarettes, against the rights of people who aren't doing anything to affect others? That is very strange.
Regarding cars, actually I couldn't care less if they replaced petrol and diesel with cleaner alternatives, I don't even drive. My point is at this time there aren't those options readily available to the consumer. If they decided to ban cars that were less eco friendly, I wouldn't care.
Re: drink driving, in case you hadn't realised this is illegal. So I don't really know what your point is there. There is a law to prevent people from drink driving, there is a law to prevent people from smoking in pubs, same thing in both cases you will have idiots who break these laws.
Yes I am going to die, by that logic you might as well make murder legal, what a stupid point! Well you know, you are going to die anyway so if someone wants to breathe posionous smoke in your face what the hell, if someone want to stab you in the heart, don't matter you're going to die one day.
You don't seem to understand that the factories and cars that pollute the atmosphere are part of a industry that has been built up over many years and only now we are realising the damage and making changes, do you want them to close them all down overnight and ban cars? Moving to a "greener" way if life will take time and it is happening.
A smoker has the right to smoke, he simply does not have the right to harm others with that smoke, I don't get why you can't see that as a good thing????
Thank god people like you don't don't have to make decisions about the welfare of the population of this country. You would say everyone is going to die one day so remove all laws and have a massive free-for all where no-one gives a crap about what they do.
I dont understand why you are so aggressive about this.
There is just one huge problem, you can get all kinds of lung diseases just from the pollution made from vehicles so are you saying that regular drivers are killing people aswell?
I am not totally pro smoking at all. I can just see both sides of the argument and I dont feel I need to be insulting or overly aggressive when I am talking about things. Are you like this in general conversation?
I agree that smoking shouldnt be allowed in work, but banning it from pubs and clubs was a bad move in my opinion.
If people are so passionate about being away from smoke, then they should simply have not gone to these places. I can understand the argument that people should be allowed to go to pubs and clubs that are non smoking, but I dont think it should have been a law. If there was that much ill feeling and that much actual demand for it, then businesses would have been built on it ages ago. The fact is though is that not that many people are actually all that bothered.
As for Roy Castle, well yes that was tragic, but I cant name one other person where the reporter on the news has said that someone has died due to passive smoking. I have heard newsreaders say that people have been killed by alcohol fueld domestic abuse and drink driving though.
That brings me to my next point. Drink related accidents, bad behaviour and murder are totally different to your average law breaking. Yes there are lawas there to tell you not to do these things, but then thats surely more of a reason to ban the stuff in the first place! Notice that you havent exactly heard any smokers sitting in pubs and clubs refusing to go outside to smoke do you? Yet people still drink drive. Why because the substance can encourage a fragile mind to break the law.
The same goes for domestic abuse. You dont hear about a man beating his wife up because hes had one too many fags, but you do tend to hear the phrase 'he attacked her in an alcohol infused rage.'
You dont see sober football hooligans beating each other up whilst smoking copius amounts of fags do you? No, they get p**sed and they become more aggressive to each other.
The point is that alcohol leads to many people braking the law. Whether that be in violent ways, is related to driving offenses, or creating broken homes. Smoking doesnt do this.
Now to call all this a 'stupid point', is frankly insulting from where I am sat.
I dont want to be too harsh on you, but the way you write in such a venemous and aggressive way makes me think you could do with a fag to just relax to be honest.
To be an Atheist isn't to say you know 100% that there isn't a God, that would be an Agnostic.
That most certainly would *not* be an agnostic. Agnostics do not deny the mere possibility of a god (or gods); rather they believe that the existence of a deity can be neither proved nor disproved.
Some agnostics think there that such proof is inherently impossible to obtain, while others believe that perhaps one day we will have a definite answer.
Similarly, some agnostics believe there most likely is a god (agnostic theism), and others believe there probably isn't (agnostic atheism), but all share the belief that we (currently) can't and won't know until we die.
As for atheists, again there's more than one type. There are weak atheists (also known as negative atheists), who disbelieve in a deity or deities, and strong atheists (also known as positive atheists), who deny even the possibility of a god or gods.
In more simple terms, atheism could be said to include both the non-religious and the anti-religious.
Thats exactly what I was saying.
an aethiest is noramlly someone who completley denies the possibilty of a God whereas and agnostic simply doesnt know.
I know in the quote you took it looks as though thats not what I meant, but in the context of what I was saying thats what it was supposed to mean.
Interesting though, I never knew there were 'levels' of aethism.
Im actually suprised noone mentioned scientology yet.
I dont understand why you are so aggressive about this.
There is just one huge problem, you can get all kinds of lung diseases just from the pollution made from vehicles so are you saying that regular drivers are killing people aswell?
I am not totally pro smoking at all. I can just see both sides of the argument and I dont feel I need to be insulting or overly aggressive when I am talking about things. Are you like this in general conversation?
I agree that smoking shouldnt be allowed in work, but banning it from pubs and clubs was a bad move in my opinion.
If people are so passionate about being away from smoke, then they should simply have not gone to these places. I can understand the argument that people should be allowed to go to pubs and clubs that are non smoking, but I dont think it should have been a law. If there was that much ill feeling and that much actual demand for it, then businesses would have been built on it ages ago. The fact is though is that not that many people are actually all that bothered.
As for Roy Castle, well yes that was tragic, but I cant name one other person where the reporter on the news has said that someone has died due to passive smoking. I have heard newsreaders say that people have been killed by alcohol fueld domestic abuse and drink driving though.
That brings me to my next point. Drink related accidents, bad behaviour and murder are totally different to your average law breaking. Yes there are lawas there to tell you not to do these things, but then thats surely more of a reason to ban the stuff in the first place! Notice that you havent exactly heard any smokers sitting in pubs and clubs refusing to go outside to smoke do you? Yet people still drink drive. Why because the substance can encourage a fragile mind to break the law.
The same goes for domestic abuse. You dont hear about a man beating his wife up because hes had one too many fags, but you do tend to hear the phrase 'he attacked her in an alcohol infused rage.'
You dont see sober football hooligans beating each other up whilst smoking copius amounts of fags do you? No, they get p**sed and they become more aggressive to each other.
The point is that alcohol leads to many people braking the law. Whether that be in violent ways, is related to driving offenses, or creating broken homes. Smoking doesnt do this.
Now to call all this a 'stupid point', is frankly insulting from where I am sat.
I dont want to be too harsh on you, but the way you write in such a venemous and aggressive way makes me think you could do with a fag to just relax to be honest.
I'm just telling it like it is, if someone gives a reason such as "we are all going to die one day" as an argument, to me that is stupid. You could dismiss anything with that comment. What's the point in any law if we are all going to die anyway. Frankly that is a stupid response.
I don't understand what you are getting at with the alcohol thing. I agree yes it does cause a lot of problems. I don't see what that has to do with a ban on smoking in public places to protect people from passive smoke? Why should one have anything to do with the other? Are you saying there should be no laws regarding smoking because something else people do (drink) causes lots of problems? Why should that come into whether to ban smoking or not?
It's like saying there should't be a law to stop dog owners allowng their dogs to crap on the pavement cos in the grand scheme of things that is nowhere near as bad as the problems caused by alcohol. There are lots of things that aren't as bad as the problems caused by alcohol abuse but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be laws to control them, why on earth should that come into it?
You also seem to dismiss the laws about being drunk and disorderly and drink driving just because poeple break them.
The problem with your comparison is that smoking has not been banned completely, people can still smoke. Of course there is a demand for the law, why else has it come into effect? There is a demand from people who work in these places. You say smoking shouldn't be allowed at work, but you forget barstaff work in pubs and clubs, so why shoudln't they be protected? You seem to think that smoking is "no big deal" so why did you say it shoudln't be allowed at work?
Smokers are in the minority. Why should people who want to avoid smoke have to stay away from pubs and clubs or suffer? Why should we bow to the smokers? I imagine the reason you don't get many people breaking this law is because it is not really that big a deal is it? Having to go outside for a fag, and I imagine for people who want to quit smoking it is a good thing.
Yes people driving cars are harming people, anything that creates pollution is harmful isn't it? Have you not noticed all the environmental talk these days?
Your point that there is so much pollution around us that banning smoking in public places won't make hardly any difference is a narrow minded view. The whole point of the law is to protect workers in these environments not to reduce the overall level of pollution of the country.
Sorry if you think my tone is aggressive but your arguments lack logic and reasoning. Perhaps you should have a drink, help clear your head a bit.
I think you are beginning to clutch at straws a bit now.
It is totally clear why I am making this comparison. If you cant understand it then thats your own fault.
My point is that they are both unhealthy and dangerous substances.
One has been banned in public, one has not.
One is linked to lung cancer, heart problems and blocking of arteries to the user and has very tenious links to harming other people. This is smoking.
The other, alcohol, is linked to heart disease for the user. For other people it is linked to violent crime and driving offenses.
The reason I am comparing it to banning smoking in public places, is because the effects of alcohol cause people to break the law, which can mean killing and harming people. Many, many more sober people are killed due to alcohol related reasons each year than non smokers are killed by smoking.
So which would you ban in public? One bad habit that puts a little bit of smoke in the air which is already completley polluted by factories and petrol engines, or one habit that has a proven track record of driving offenses and organised rioting?
What I am saying is in absolutley no way stupid and is a perfectly and totally valid point. If you dont agree with it I can handle that, but to say that my arguments lack logic and reasoning is fundementally incorrect and ending your post with 'you should have a drink, help clear your head a bit' is one of the most bizarre sentences I have ever read. It seems you were pretty desperate to match what I had written in my last post but unfortunatley ended up writing the exact opposite of what alcohol does to you.
I like a pint but I would never have one to 'clear my head'. Where on earth are you coming from with that?
You also said that my point that there is so much pollution around that banniing smoking doesnt make a difference was a narrow minded view. Then you gave utterly no evidence of why this is.
Well I'll tell you why I have a point.
No one can prove any deaths are related to passive smoking because it is scientifically impossible. Scientists and Doctors say that BECAUSE there is so much pollution in the air already it is impossible to put anything down to passive smoking. You simply wouldnt be able to rule out the possibility that pollution from cars and factories could be involved.
You yourself decide to ignore all this scientific evidence and just say, 'no, passive smoking kills people'. Now how can you possibly call ME narrow minded when you are ignoring all the evidence in order to support your argument?
Your entire point is centred around one narrow minded opinion that has absolutley no scientific or medical proof behind it. This is a toally irrefutable fact.
I You yourself decide to ignore all this scientific evidence and just say, 'no, passive smoking kills people'. Now how can you possibly call ME narrow minded when you are ignoring all the evidence in order to support your argument?
Your entire point is centred around one narrow minded opinion that has absolutley no scientific or medical proof behind it. This is a toally irrefutable fact.
Ok you really are misguided if you think that statement is correct there are many studies that PROVE that passive smoking has links to increased risk of many diseases and it just proves how little you know about the subject and that just cos you don't "hear about people dying of passive smoking related illnesses on the news" does not mean it doesn't happen.
Then you might understand why the law came into effect, cos you clearly know nothing about it.
Oh and here is the conclusion to that study as I doubt you will even look at it, with your blinkered view of things -
Conclusion
The above research provides the most definitive evidence to date of the health effects of ETS or passive smoking on non-smokers. It is now known that exposure to ETS causes a number of fatal and non-fatal health effects. Heart disease mortality, sudden infant death syndrome, and lung and nasal sinus cancer have been causally linked to ETS exposure. Serious effects on the young include childhood induction and exacerbation of asthma, bronchitis and pneumonia, middle ear infection, chronic respiratory symptoms, and low birth weight. In adults, passive smoking causes acute and chronic heart disease and lung cancer. While the relative health risks are small compared to those from active smoking, because the diseases are common the overall health impact is large.
The tobacco companies have a vested interest in challenging and undermining the findings on ETS and studies published by them or their affiliates should therefore be treated with caution. In view of the considerable health impact of passive smoking, particularly on the young, measures to restrict smoking in indoor environments should be a major public health objective
Copyright 2006 - 2009 Future Publishing Limited, Beauford Court, 30 Monmouth Street, Bath, UK BA1 2BW England and Wales company registration number 2008885
I could understand a little more maybe if it was made in Japan etc.
