Valve has responded to the wave of negative feedback surrounding Left 4 Dead 2, asking gamers to "give us a fair shake" before writing the sequel off.
A Steam 'boycott' group has managed to amass almost 20,000 members, claiming that "the announced content of Left 4 Dead 2 does not warrant a stand-alone, full-priced sequel and should instead become updates (free or otherwise) for Left 4 Dead".
"We want to wait and weed through the comments, I'm already getting e-mails, and I'm responding to them," Valve's Chet Faliszek said.
"Looking back, was the Orange Box a ripoff?" He said, on initial complaints at having to "buy" Half-Life 2 again in the compilation. "Give us a fair shake on this, read more about it, find out about it, we've already let people play it [at E3]... After that, if you want to vent, post to the forums. We do read them, we read all the forums."
Apparently the developer was expecting backlash from the sequel before it was even announced, deciding to text prominent map makers minutes after its reveal to let them know that their work would not be affected negatively by the sequel.
But according to Faliszek, Left 4 Dead 2's five new campaigns, new weapons, special infected and zombie dismemberment are simply too huge to put in an update.
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"We had some meetings about it, and we all talked about our ideas, and everyone was pretty focused and thoughtful, a lot of the same ideas were happening," Faliszek told Ars Technica. "We wanted the Director to be smarter, but to be smarter it needed more special infected in its stable. For example, the Charger that we see today.
"It just became very clear that this was a cohesive, singular statement we wanted to make, not a more slow update thing... too much stuff was tied together with too many other things.
"The Common Infected-now there is destruction in different parts of their body, to ship all the new Common Infected, even with an update, would be a huge thing."
According to Faliszek, even Valve boss Gabe Newell expressed doubts initially. "To Gabe's credit, and he's a great guy to work for, he said if this is what you want to do, if this is what you're excited about, go do it."
The SDK for the first Left 4 Dead will be coming out of beta in the next week or so, and Faliszek points to that as proof that Valve will be supporting the original game.
As for playing old maps with the new Left 4 Dead 2 features, he said: "We have some additional work to do there, we're talking about how to do that. That's what we want to do."
Chet really is a nice guy and I've seen the efforts that he's gone to with responding to many of his unhappy customers.
It's just sad that L4D was so expensive, and now it's getting put to bed. I don't question whether L4D2 will be worth the money or not, but I'm not taking the gamble again, given the low level of support and content that was provided with L4D1.
I'd love to support Valve (taking the free TF2 updates almost feels like robbery) but it's true that quite a large portion of trust has been lost in this event.
I wish Valve would pay more attention to those with positive attitude towards this. But us, who can't wait for L4D 2 don't bother creating 10 new whiny threads about how Valve apparently "have dropped the ball".
I have seen people complain about the original game, such as the post above. But that is rather up to tastes. I have played probably 300 hours of it, and I never felt there was a lack of content, with the exception of two maps that lacked in the versus mode for a very long time. But in my opinion, L4D 1 was worth all the money I paid for it, and more.
The silly boicotters group is a joke. I bet 70% of them will buy L4D 2 anyway, especially when they see how awesome it is, which I have no doubts will. Half of them are probably taking part in this group because they find it fun being a part of a protest and all. Because I really can't see any different explanation for it. All worries they were concerned with, such as that there will be no more content for the first L4D game, have been denied by Valve.
according to Faliszek, Left 4 Dead 2's five new campaigns, new weapons, special infected and zombie dismemberment are simply too huge to put in an update.
Yes, all of that new content will surely put the game almost on par with Half-Life 2: Episode 2... The fact that they can turn around and create this "sequel", with it's "vast amounts of content" in less than 12 months is not a good sign.
Mr. Faliszek, sir, I'm sure that people will be overjoyed when a true sequel to Left 4 Dead arrives, but this isn't it.
Left 4 Dead 2 seems to consist entirely of the things that you told people they would getting when they paid for the first game, during all of the marketing and promotion for that title.
There's no excusing that. If you have to rationalize it by telling yourself that it's too big for one DLC, then split it into 2 DLC packs. Hell, split it into 5 DLC packs.
The bottom line is that when you were selling us the first game you told us we'd already paid for the new content, and now that you've taken the money you're telling us we're going to have to pay again. Not cool.
That's why 20,040 people have joined a group to boycott your new game over the last 9 days, and why more are joining every single minute.
Maybe it's time for the modding community to have a go at the first one. I am not sure if there is much of it as I have only played a little of this.
I remember back in the day though, when we had Quakeworld and Quake 2, there was a thriving community in both of those games. I know there was more of a gap between the 2, but lots of people still played both games.
I'll get the sequel no probs. I'll probably be playing both online also. As long as I am still having fun on both of them, I'll continue to play them.
I've never played L4D but I would say give valve a chance no one bitches at EA for their yearly updates of near enough the same games and same for COD games.
That's why 20,040 people have joined a group to boycott your new game over the last 9 days, and why more are joining every single minute.
All rendered a bit moot when millions will buy the sequel anyway, none of this complaining is going to change a game with a set release date, so all you can do is not buy it, the more you moan about it the more you come across as spoilt brat who doesn’t get exactly what they want for Christmas.
I bought the game on it's own merits and I had no faith we'd see sizeable DLC on console. The Team Fortress updates may never see the light of day on xbox.
It's the PC crowd that have the most to bitch about.
Although I generally agree with their argument, I knew what I was getting when I bought the game.
I'm actually looking forward to the sequel even though it kind of confirms the first as an experiment. It just wasn't as fleshed out as it could of been.
I've never played L4D but I would say give valve a chance no one bitches at EA for their yearly updates of near enough the same games and same for COD games.
is it just me or do valve games lack the graphical polish of other games. (even pc versions)
When HL2 was first released on the PC it was top of it's game in terms of the Source engine. That was quite a few years ago, though.
There have been some upgrades since release, such as HDR, but it is starting to age graphically. Even so it's probably the best game engine ever created given it's versatility, physics modeling and proven longevity. It's a good example of how gameplay, story, design and art direction can make a game beautiful even if the graphics aren't a match for the Crysis engine.
That's why 20,040 people have joined a group to boycott your new game over the last 9 days, and why more are joining every single minute.
All rendered a bit moot when millions will buy the sequel anyway, none of this complaining is going to change a game with a set release date, so all you can do is not buy it, the more you moan about it the more you come across as spoilt brat who doesn’t get exactly what they want for Christmas.
Pfft, if people stick to their guns on this one, (And when the other option is to spend another $50 on a 5-hour expansion, I don't see that as unlikely) every time that "Join Group" button is click, Valve are losing $50.
20,152 people so far = $1,007,600. I think Valve are taking notice.
Besides that, since when does complaining about not receiving something you've already paid for make you "come across as spoilt brat who doesn’t get exactly what they want for Christmas"?
The people who are bitching about the L4D issue are the smart, aware ones. It's the people who aren't complaining at the moment who are clearly either functionally retarded, or complete masochists.
Oops, 20,175 people in the time it took me to write 2 paragraphs. I don't see even 1% of that number stopping by to defend Valve...
I can't believe that he had to explain himself. I mean, it's a shame that they weren't more honest about the amount of support L4D was gonna get, but he doesn't need to grovel to these people for forgiveness.
If they don't want to play the sequel to the game that they love so much, isn't that their problem? I'm sure Valve will rest easy when the other million fans of the original that haven't signed the petition (myself included) go out and buy the sequel.
Also... does this situation remind anyone else of a certain Simpsons character?
Comic Book Guy: Last night's Itchy & Scratchy was, without a doubt, the worst episode ever. Rest assured I was on the Internet within minutes registering my disgust throughout the world. Bart: Hey, I know it wasn’t great, but what right do you have to complain? Comic Book Guy: As a loyal viewer, I feel they owe me. Bart: What? They’re giving you thousands of hours of entertainment. What could they possibly owe you? If anything, you owe them. Comic Book Guy: Worst episode ever.
If they don't want to play the sequel to the game that they love so much, isn't that their problem?
Their problem isn't the sequel.
Their problem is that they're now not going to get the rest of the first game that they've already paid for. The stuff they were told by Valve they'd get if they paid for it.
cant they just make a cool four players? is it just me or does everyone avoid being the black guy, the girl, or the old man? make some characters which will be cool to play, not a fat black guy, and fat black woman and a middle aged douche. the only one anyone will want to play as is the young guy - im saying what everyone is thinking, lets be honest here
It didn't get the Sony fanboys anywhere when they moaned about Devil May Cry 4 going multiplatform, it won't make a jot of difference... it'll still come out and all these retards who say they won't buy the game... will buy the game.
Where do I sign a petition saying I will be buying this game on day 1? Too many sony fanboys bitching that they dont have anything close to this, so they move away from metacritic to this form of protest. No-one is complaining that final fantasy 7, 13 and 14 are coming out within 12 months of each other. Thats because they are all on ps3. That says it all right there.
My point, Mr Scramble, is that you have already made your option not to buy it, so why continue to moan about it as if they have stolen something from you.
On your sales point, say for example those 20,000 or so people don’t buy it, ok fine, yet on the flipside their well publicised protest in vain will do nothing but increase the profile of the game.
A $50 priced sale, does not mean $50 in Valve’s pocket. Without any PC sales I can’t comment on those figures, but so far on the Xbox it is reported that Left 4 Dead has sold 2,210,000 copies, which using your rational, would mean Valve pockets 110,500,000 so those 20,000 people are merely a drop in the ocean, a company will willingly take that on the chin if it means similar sales figures to the previous instalment.
What’s happened is basically you have been spoiled by Valve in the past, and as such you feel robbed, but this is not the case, the case is you’re acting like a spoilt child that hasn’t got their own way and will try to stamp their feet until they do. Just get over it and move on, it’s only a game…
cant they just make a cool four players? is it just me or does everyone avoid being the black guy, the girl, or the old man? make some characters which will be cool to play, not a fat black guy, and fat black woman and a middle aged douche. the only one anyone will want to play as is the young guy - im saying what everyone is thinking, lets be honest here
That's why 20,040 people have joined a group to boycott your new game over the last 9 days, and why more are joining every single minute.
All rendered a bit moot when millions will buy the sequel anyway, none of this complaining is going to change a game with a set release date, so all you can do is not buy it, the more you moan about it the more you come across as spoilt brat who doesn’t get exactly what they want for Christmas.
Pfft, if people stick to their guns on this one, (And when the other option is to spend another $50 on a 5-hour expansion, I don't see that as unlikely) every time that "Join Group" button is click, Valve are losing $50.
20,152 people so far = $1,007,600. I think Valve are taking notice.
Besides that, since when does complaining about not receiving something you've already paid for make you "come across as spoilt brat who doesn’t get exactly what they want for Christmas"?
The people who are bitching about the L4D issue are the smart, aware ones. It's the people who aren't complaining at the moment who are clearly either functionally retarded, or complete masochists.
Oops, 20,175 people in the time it took me to write 2 paragraphs. I don't see even 1% of that number stopping by to defend Valve...
2.21 million people bought L4D on 360. They were never going to get major free content anyway.
2.21 million at $50 a pop is $110,500,000.
Valve are taking notice of the idiots signing that petition because they actually give a crap about their fans. Not because they might lose less than 1% total sales.
Valve are a company. They don't owe you anything. If you bought a product because you expected something else to be delivered later then you are the mug. I bought the game with no such expectations, and am happy to be getting a sequel.
Just reaffirms my belief that most PC gamers are pirates or cheapskates.
My point, Mr Scramble, is that you have already made your option not to buy it, so why continue to moan about it as if they have stolen something from you.
What’s happened is basically you have been spoiled by Valve in the past, and as such you feel robbed, but this is not the case, the case is you’re acting like a spoilt child that hasn’t got their own way and will try to stamp their feet until they do. Just get over it and move on, it’s only a game…
Your point is pointless.
My point is that a lot of people bought the first game on the understanding that yes, it is lacking in content, but that Valve would continue to add more in free updates down the line.
Not my words. Valve's words. (It's all there on the boycott site, interviews and videos with members of the Left 4 Dead team promoting the game by telling us about the extra campaigns we'll get down the line if we buy their game.)
So, your "continue to moan about it as if they have stolen something from you" is exactly on the money. We gave the the money. They didn't pay up with the content they promoted their game with.
They don't owe you anything. If you bought a product because you expected something else to be delivered later then you are the mug.
Just reaffirms my belief that most PC gamers are pirates or cheapskates.
Sorry to break your protective bubble, but if a company promotes a game by saying that certain things will be delivered, then they don't deliver after you've paid them, then anybody who simply stands back and says "fair enough" is a mug.
...and your last line confirms my belief that the only people who are defending Valve on this issue are bitter Xbox 360 owners who wouldn't have got the DLC anyway.
Oh, and 20,275 members now. Still no signs of slowing.
For one they have said they will still be supporting the first game for a while yet, so they still haven’t necessarily reneged on what they said, but even if they did it’s understandable, we are in the middle of one of the worst recessions ever, why do you think that a company that pays its staff to develop this new game should be handing it out for free?
They haven’t ripped you off, you bought a game, a full finished game, regardless of what was promised. Things change, s**t happens. I’ve had loads of hours of fun from Left 4 Dead, but I probably won’t buy the sequel, certainly not full price, but I just can’t understand peoples sheer pompous disgust that a company would actually like to make some money out of what they do.
If people have got a such problem with Valve bringing out another must have game then instead of bitching about it just don't buy it, but I bet most of them will. As for valve to stop supporting L4dead 1.give it a couple of months and there will be loads of mods for the game as they are releasing the SDK soon
Does anybody else think that the quality of your average gamer. (as a person) has decreased dramatically or do forums just by and large attract scum. I mean seriously between this and the Nintendo thread i just posted on, it seems that the few good rational guys arew being surrounded by spoiled brats and idiots.
I'll be getting L4D2 because the first one was a breath of fresh air and i have put far more online time into it than any other game.
Joke is if they'd put the same amount of content into L4D2 waited a year and maybe released a map pack for the first thier wouldn't be this toys out the pram reaction.
For one they have said they will still be supporting the first game for a while yet, so they still haven’t necessarily reneged on what they said
So they're going to halt work on L4D2 to make those downloadable extra campaigns, characters and weapons that they promoted the first game with?
They haven’t ripped you off, you bought a game, a full finished game, regardless of what was promised.
No. Bottom line is that Valve themselves told us PC gamers that when we spent our $50, we'd be getting certain things. With the launch of L4D2, (that was apparently put into development very soon after the first one launched) they've told us that we're not getting what we paid for after all.
**Edit**(Link 1, Link 2, there are many more out there.) **Edit over**
There is no way at all that you can defend that kind of thing. (Unless you count calling people names a method of polite debate.)
20,342 members of the boycott group now. I still can't find the "We support L4D2" group, but I'll post the comparative numbers as soon as I see 'em.
cant they just make a cool four players? is it just me or does everyone avoid being the black guy, the girl, or the old man? make some characters which will be cool to play, not a fat black guy, and fat black woman and a middle aged douche. the only one anyone will want to play as is the young guy - im saying what everyone is thinking, lets be honest here
I am always anyone but Francis! Preference is Louis, Bill, Zoey, Francis. Even though I neither black, nor old, nor female.
Games are all about escapism!! For me, at least it makes a change from space marines, soldiers and other clichés!
My friend and I were saying it always seems to be Francis who hits you with the most friendly fire. Not sure if that is just coincidence though.
Left 4 Dead 2 is coming across as the game that the first game should have been. The first game was quite bare and for valve to announce a sequel less than a year later is disgraceful. The improvements to the game although may be significant, they can hardly expect those who bought the original only a few months ago to spend the same money again on the sequel. They should have left it another year, so people feel like they are getting their moneys worth on the original and are more than happy to pay for the sequel.
As I said before, things change. I’m not party to the company accounts, but perhaps it wasn’t financially viable for them to plug lots of money into developing extra content for the game and give it away for free. If it came down to a choice, would you rather pay for more content or get none at all?
You really don’t need to keep us updated about the boycott group you know, we get your point.
For one they have said they will still be supporting the first game for a while yet, so they still haven’t necessarily reneged on what they said
So they're going to halt work on L4D2 to make those downloadable extra campaigns, characters and weapons that they promoted the first game with?
They haven’t ripped you off, you bought a game, a full finished game, regardless of what was promised.
No. Bottom line is that Valve themselves told us PC gamers that when we spent our $50, we'd be getting certain things. With the launch of L4D2, (that was apparently put into development very soon after the first one launched) they've told us that we're not getting what we paid for after all.
**Edit**(Link 1, Link 2, there are many more out there.) **Edit over**
There is no way at all that you can defend that kind of thing. (Unless you count calling people names a method of polite debate.)
20,342 members of the boycott group now. I still can't find the "We support L4D2" group, but I'll post the comparative numbers as soon as I see 'em.
Having seen them say they would support it, I can understand more why PC gamers would be feeling p**sed off with this. It's not marketing crap, its straight from the horse's mouth!
I still think for the 360, getting five extra campaigns, extra characters, extra weapons etc would soon mount up close to the price of a new game in terms of DLC. Of course, PC owners don't have to put up with this to the same degree, so I can understand the frustration. Especially considering Valve's previous form.
And after having a quick look at the forum, it's a very well worded, measured and justified response (at least from the group mods, I havent delved into the forums in any depth). If only all forums were so well thought through instead of just attack, attack, attack!
You really don’t need to keep us updated about the boycott group you know, we get your point.
Agreed but I found it startling and I'm not even a fan! L4D never interested me but the way businesses operate does. Whoever is right or wrong here is open for debate but as an outsider, Valve etc do come across as making a bit of a mistake with customer relations...
I can't remember who said it now but it was a very interesting point.
This boycott has actually increased awareness of the game. It was on the Mirror's site for instance. This controversy has elevated the game above all the other E3 announcements in the public consiousness, so a lot of people who actually missed L4D the first time are going to be very curious come November.
As I've said before, the first L4D was light of content but was lovingly crafted. The DLC was a mite pointless but I am still playing it today.
The one thing that this debate is hanging off are the interviews before the first game launched. If they hadn't said anything regarding content to come there would be no argument.
I can see why (PC) fans are a bit p**sy, but Valve have a great reputation and I think judging them harshly over their decisions regarding this sequel is a bit premature. The game isn't out until November, lets judge it then.
valve is short sided..i know they are a business, but after the leadership made certain comments, they need to honor those said comments, and make money on the dlc, it can actually be cheaper for them to make a few dlc's and not press a dvd for sale and distribute. wait for a nother year to relase a true sequel with more true updates and all will be happy
For one they have said they will still be supporting the first game for a while yet, so they still haven’t necessarily reneged on what they said
So they're going to halt work on L4D2 to make those downloadable extra campaigns, characters and weapons that they promoted the first game with?
They haven’t ripped you off, you bought a game, a full finished game, regardless of what was promised.
No. Bottom line is that Valve themselves told us PC gamers that when we spent our $50, we'd be getting certain things. With the launch of L4D2, (that was apparently put into development very soon after the first one launched) they've told us that we're not getting what we paid for after all.
**Edit**(Link 1, Link 2, there are many more out there.) **Edit over**
There is no way at all that you can defend that kind of thing. (Unless you count calling people names a method of polite debate.)
20,342 members of the boycott group now. I still can't find the "We support L4D2" group, but I'll post the comparative numbers as soon as I see 'em.
Having seen them say they would support it, I can understand more why PC gamers would be feeling p**sed off with this. It's not marketing crap, its straight from the horse's mouth!
I still think for the 360, getting five extra campaigns, extra characters, extra weapons etc would soon mount up close to the price of a new game in terms of DLC. Of course, PC owners don't have to put up with this to the same degree, so I can understand the frustration. Especially considering Valve's previous form.
And after having a quick look at the forum, it's a very well worded, measured and justified response (at least from the group mods, I havent delved into the forums in any depth). If only all forums were so well thought through instead of just attack, attack, attack!
I agree with you, I've been on the forums too and most are at least eloquent in their disillusionment.
I think Valve did make a mistake, not in making a sequel...but going on record as promising stuff that they knew may not happen.
I'm not p**sed off about it, I think it's a shame and when l4d2 was announced I could have predicted the outrage. Maybe not to the magnitude it's reached but still.
This is the biggest boycott I've actually seen, things don't get this big unless there are actual grounds for it.
For me, if Valve learn to not make empty promises from now on then that's good enough for me.
I know, the member updates were a bit much, but I was trying to draw support from the imaginary internet people.
If it came down to a choice, would you rather pay for more content or get none at all?
If it came down to a choice, I'd probably be just about satisfied with the middle ground.
Option A: Free Content - would be great. Valve keep to their promotional promises, remain as probably the single most-loved PC developer on the planet this decade, and me and millions of others instantly buy whatever they release on launch day, making Valve stupidly rich, powerful and popular.
According to Gabe Newell, managing director of Valve Corporation, this was the plan.
Option B: Paid DLC - depends on the going rate, but would be acceptable. Lots of people would still be bitching, Valve would be given a very hard time about it, but most of us would give in eventually to play more Left 4 Dead. We'd grumble at it, Valve would lose some face, but the levels of Internets Drama would be lessened.
Option C: A new, full price title, containing 5-hours of maps and new characters, creatures and weapons - See current s**tstorm for details.
But even with this one mistake, promising what they shouldn’t have, are they still not one of the best developers? They’re practically peerless in terms of how they’ve supported their PC games, so I just can’t understand the way some people react, disappointment I can understand, but using words like ‘disgust’ and so on just seems a little over reactive.
If I was a fan, I'd be more than happy to pay a small fee every quater to receive quality updates that'll keep my game fresh and have continued support. Why 'Left 4 Dead 2'? Seems strange for Valve to move on so soon and split an established community.
Oh, and in the interests of fair debate, I found the Steam group for people who support the idea of Left 4 Dead 2 on the PC.
625 members, and counting. I won't bore you with another update of the other side.
That's hardly a fair representation. Everyone knows that negativity results in the biggest feedback.
When you research products, holidays etc. you've purchased you can find it quite disheartening to see lots of negative feedback. You need to consider that the people who aren't happy are going to spend the time to tell people about it, whereas the people who are happy or indifferent are going to get on with their lives.
Plus there's the bandwagon effect. I doubt that group would have anywhere near that number of users if it hadn't been covered so much in the press.
I think this can only be a good thing. The original Left 4 Dead was too dark, in my opinion, so you didn't get a real effect of what was going on around you. Your health bar would mysteriously shrink as you battled undead to the front, and you would turn around and there would be a silhouette of another graveyard ped attackig you from behind.
Oh, and in the interests of fair debate, I found the Steam group for people who support the idea of Left 4 Dead 2 on the PC.
625 members, and counting. I won't bore you with another update of the other side.
That's hardly a fair representation. Everyone knows that negativity results in the biggest feedback.
Plus there's the bandwagon effect. I doubt that group would have anywhere near that number of users if it hadn't been covered so much in the press.
Yes, but this negative feedback bandwagon effect cuts both ways.
Now that the publicity is running full steam (no pun intended) for the "Boycott Group", people who are strongly opposed to them can use this power of negativity to form their own equally massive bandwagon of negative feedback to form a group to "Boycott the boycotters", as it were.
Consider that the media who are covering this aren't providing the correct information to their readers and seem to have subtly taken Valve's side vs. the original boycotters means there's plenty of support for any groups opposed to the boycott group.
(As we've seen in this thread, there is plenty of support for Valve's actions among the group of people who don't actually know what's on, aka. the people ignorant of the "saga of the missing L4D content", and are content to merely write off the boycott group as "PC Gamers and spoiled brats".)
The fact that the place where this disparity between complainers and supporters is so damn huge is also the same place where the group of gamers most educated about "what's actually going on with L4D2" seem to hang out is rather telling.
Also, in case you're wondering: 20,782 vs. 630 at the latest count.
cant you idiots see, pc gamers are really upset over this because valve are the one company we have left going for us, who actually put us first. and now the console fanboys are starting to claw at them wanting a go but not realising - the fact that they are a PC games company is what made them so great in the first place. they have respect for their customers and dont treat them like basement-bound gimps which they rape for money whenever they feel like it, EA. the problem is that console fags are all too ready with their legs pulled apart to take the gigantic corporate c**k. this game is the symbol for the one decent company left in the industry turning its back on the people.
cant you idiots see, pc gamers are really upset over this because valve are the one company we have left going for us, who actually put us first. and now the console fanboys are starting to claw at them wanting a go but not realising - the fact that they are a PC games company is what made them so great in the first place. they have respect for their customers and dont treat them like basement-bound gimps which they rape for money whenever they feel like it, EA. the problem is that console fags are all too ready with their legs pulled apart to take the gigantic corporate c**k. this game is the symbol for the one decent company left in the industry turning its back on the people.
Why are some people so excited about l4d2? The trailer was boring. no new engine, and thrown together presentations. I mean for god sake all the original zombies look the same! They said they wanted more in depth story line...so im guessing that means it'll be about how all the Special infected shop at the same clothing store before they turn? And don't even get me started on the damn fiddle music or the flame bullets. It sounds silly. It looks rushed and for those of you who say it still has 6 months to develop... thats not saying much at all. especially since they've been working on this since the release of L4d 1. Why are people p**sed? cuz its more money your shelling out for a game that is located in new Orleans with an "improved A.I. Director." Which showed no strength or even visible evidence it exists at all. And according to Valves commintary on l4d the Director was the primary focus of the first game that accounted for all those "hours" of gameplay. Now it seems the focus at E3 was.. "Hey look...Fire BULLETS.. and *gasp* the zombies break apart....wow. impressive Valve.. don't be a sell out. Stick to what you're good at... and thats listening to your fans and acting on that "Entertainment Service" you said you were all about.
...its only a game people.....L4D wasn't full price when it came out anyway and was a fun FPS which was a breath of fresh air...so Valve said they would give some DLC for free but have now decided to put it in a bigger and better sequel...cool.....sounds good to me........if you're not happy with a sequel, don't buy it and play the original.....its really not worth a petition...ITS A GAME
cant you idiots see, pc gamers are really upset over this because valve are the one company we have left going for us, who actually put us first. and now the console fanboys are starting to claw at them wanting a go but not realising - the fact that they are a PC games company is what made them so great in the first place. they have respect for their customers and dont treat them like basement-bound gimps which they rape for money whenever they feel like it, EA. the problem is that console fags are all too ready with their legs pulled apart to take the gigantic corporate c**k. this game is the symbol for the one decent company left in the industry turning its back on the people.
You really need to think before you speak. You stupid sounding moron. I mean really, you sound like you're going through the last days of Rome or something. It is a VIDEOGAME and they are a COMPANY. Plus, forty quid? Really? That's what you're signing PETITIONS for? Nice sense of perspective. I'll see you on the other side. I'll be the one with normal blood-pressure and a sturdy grip on reality.
...its only a game people.....L4D wasn't full price when it came out anyway
L4D was a full priced game when it was released. It's still a full-priced game now.
its really not worth a petition...ITS A GAME
That's what you're signing PETITIONS for? Nice sense of perspective. I'll see you on the other side. I'll be the one with normal blood-pressure and a sturdy grip on reality.
These people have taken 0.5 seconds to click a button because they've been ripped off by a games company. This is an easily provable fact, if you'd bothered to read through the above links and discussion, you'd already know that.
You, on the other hand, have come into this thread to whine about what?
Let's see... People whining because they've been ripped off, and people whining because... They don't like other people whining about being ripped off?
The level of hypocrisy that's on display here is truly, truly startling.
You can say whatever you want, but from I saw from L4D2 it looks like expansion pack to me and not a 50eur sequel (1$=1eur, don't forget )
I've read about L4D2, saw the gameplay and the new things and I still can't see a reason why this can't be an expansion. Oh wait, I know. Because of X360. It wouldn't be a problem to make it expansion for the PC version of L4D, OR to make it a DLC (doesn't have to be free), like with TF2, but that wouldn't work with the X360 version of L4D as we've seen with TF2.
The only thing that'd make me change my opinion and buy L4D2 is if the price was like for expansion pack (even the first L4D wasn't worth imo the full price, that's why I bought it in weekend deal, not to mention the fact, that L4D2 is "just" adding some new stuff to the first game) and if it was compatible with the first L4D because otherwise, the announcement of L4D2 makes the original pretty much worthless. Why bother playing the first game, when there's the new and enhanced version? Even if they release some DLC for it. What's the point?
And yea, I'm one of those 20 000+ people who joined the boycott group.
...its only a game people.....L4D wasn't full price when it came out anyway
L4D was a full priced game when it was released. It's still a full-priced game now.
its really not worth a petition...ITS A GAME
That's what you're signing PETITIONS for? Nice sense of perspective. I'll see you on the other side. I'll be the one with normal blood-pressure and a sturdy grip on reality.
These people have taken 0.5 seconds to click a button because they've been ripped off by a games company. This is an easily provable fact, if you'd bothered to read through the above links and discussion, you'd already know that.
You, on the other hand, have come into this thread to whine about what?
Let's see... People whining because they've been ripped off, and people whining because... They don't like other people whining about being ripped off?
The level of hypocrisy that's on display here is truly, truly startling.
...isn't that what a forum is about..??..people viewing opinions??....my opinion is that a compnay deciding to do a sequel rather than DLC is not worth a petition.....others will disagree....thats life...!!!
...isn't that what a forum is about..??..people viewing opinions??....my opinion is that a compnay deciding to do a sequel rather than DLC is not worth a petition.....others will disagree....thats life...!!!
Yes, and their petition is a simple and quick method of them presenting their opinion as a group, only with a single click instead of having to type out "Yes, I agree" 23,502 times...
...isn't that what a forum is about..??..people viewing opinions??....my opinion is that a compnay deciding to do a sequel rather than DLC is not worth a petition.....others will disagree....thats life...!!!
Yes, and their petition is a simple and quick method of them presenting their opinion as a group, only with a single click instead of having to type out "Yes, I agree" 23,502 times...
See where we're going with this?
....ok, the simple click petition is nice and easy but we could have a petition about every game sequel suggesting it could be DLC instead..it could get a bit silly....Valve are here to make games and MONEY....especially in the current climate.
....ok, the simple click petition is nice and easy but we could have a petition about every game sequel suggesting it could be DLC instead..it could get a bit silly....Valve are here to make games and MONEY....especially in the current climate.
"Especially in the current climate"?! It's taking me a little effort to remain polite at this point, but I'm still going to to point out that your argument is the weakest I've heard for a long time. And that's saying something, considering the state of these forums.
In case you haven't noticed, the current economic climate is affecting us gamers too, and considering how much money Valve are raking in with their games, the "current climate" is exactly one more reason that Valve shouldn't be trying to push this thing as a full priced game. And that's not even the reason that tens of thousands of people are upset in the first place!
So you're saying that in times of economic hardship, wealthy producers of goods should try and drive their prices all the way up to increase sales? Good luck with that one.
What's worse, you then go and justify Valve's immoral actions by saying it's okay because they're trying to make money? So doing bad things is okay, as long as you're making money out of it?
Maybe that line of reasoning works if you're a complete sociopath, but in polite society that kind of thing is frowned upon.
You haven't even read this thread, have you, "davidc"? You've just blundered in at the end and started spouting the same silliness that we'd already gone over at the top.
What, did you think that 23,900 people are pledging to boycott a game just because they think it should be a little bit cheaper?
You obviously don't even know why the boycott group exists. You're one of those people that I mentioned above:
people who don't actually know what's on, aka. the people ignorant of the "saga of the missing L4D content", and are content to merely write off the boycott group as "PC Gamers and spoiled brats".
....ok, the simple click petition is nice and easy but we could have a petition about every game sequel suggesting it could be DLC instead..it could get a bit silly....Valve are here to make games and MONEY....especially in the current climate.
"Especially in the current climate"?! It's taking me a little effort to remain polite at this point, but I'm still going to to point out that your argument is the weakest I've heard for a long time. And that's saying something, considering the state of these forums.
In case you haven't noticed, the current economic climate is affecting us gamers too, and considering how much money Valve are raking in with their games, the "current climate" is exactly one more reason that Valve shouldn't be trying to push this thing as a full priced game. And that's not even the reason that tens of thousands of people are upset in the first place!
So you're saying that in times of economic hardship, wealthy producers of goods should try and drive their prices all the way up to increase sales? Good luck with that one.
What's worse, you then go and justify Valve's immoral actions by saying it's okay because they're trying to make money? So doing bad things is okay, as long as you're making money out of it?
Maybe that line of reasoning works if you're a complete sociopath, but in polite society that kind of thing is frowned upon.
You haven't even read this thread, have you, "davidc"? You've just blundered in at the end and started spouting the same silliness that we'd already gone over at the top.
What, did you think that 23,900 people are pledging to boycott a game just because they think it should be a little bit cheaper?
You obviously don't even know why the boycott group exists. You're one of those people that I mentioned above:
people who don't actually know what's on, aka. the people ignorant of the "saga of the missing L4D content", and are content to merely write off the boycott group as "PC Gamers and spoiled brats".
Go back.
Read the thread.
Then comment away.
...immoral actions?...a bit OTT don't u think. They have produced a game, stated there will be some DLC ( which there has been- albeit not a lot to be fair) and are now producing a sequel. Ok so the DLC hasn't been what they originally said but its hardly immoral and certainly not worth getting upset about. Don't buy L4D2. I didn't say i agreed with Valve's actions BUT they are here to make money and was simply stating i thought people were acting a little OTT.
...immoral actions?...a bit OTT don't u think. They have produced a game, stated there will be some DLC ( which there has been- albeit not a lot to be fair) and are now producing a sequel. Ok so the DLC hasn't been what they originally said but its hardly immoral and certainly not worth getting upset about. Don't buy L4D2. I didn't say i agreed with Valve's actions BUT they are here to make money and was simply stating i thought people were acting a little OTT.
Hardly immoral? Acting a little OTT?
Valve took people's money and then didn't deliver what they'd advertised. Lots of people only bought the game because they were told that there would be more good deal more content added, myself included.
Bearing in mind that Valve have told us the sequel went into production almost as soon as the first title had shipped, that means that there were a hell of lot of people buying the first game with Valve's assurances fresh in mind, even when Valve themselves knew that they wouldn't be providing that content.
I can't believe I'm still arguing this point. Taking people's money and then not giving them what you told them they were buying is immoral.
Full stop.
There are even laws against that kind of thing, and it's very lucky for Valve that the line between advertising your game for free in the press and paying for your own adverts is very, very blurred, otherwise I'm sure that some bright-spark somewhere would be talking "class-action lawsuit", or at least contacting their local trading standards.
...and in the face of that, you think that clicking a little "Join this Group" button on their game window in response is "OTT"?
Personally, I think the boycotters are being extremely mature and gracious, under the circumstances.
You are discussing the biggest organized protest of a publisher in gaming history.
People don't do that kind of thing unless there's a very good reason, believe me.
If you don't understand why over 24,000 gamers are p**sed off with Valve, then please at least have the decency not to shoot your mouth off on the subject before doing some research of your own.
Regardless of what people were told was coming in future DLC, they paid for what was on the disc of L4D1. Announcing the intention to release more DLC is not in any way binding for them to actually end up releasing it - anyone who's followed gaming news long enough knows that announced games/updates get cancelled and plans change all the time, so anyone who seriously only bought L4D for content that didn't exist yet was making a risky purchase, whether they like it or not. You pay for what's in the box, ALWAYS.
As for the new game "splitting the community" into those who have L4D2 and those with L4D1, why do people think that would be any different if these same features were released as DLC? Look at the list - new Infected, new ways of removing their body parts, new weapons - these are new core gameplay methods. Even if Valve released these same features as an update, people without the update could never play in a game where other people were playing the new content.
The only way to get it to everyone equally and not split the players up would be to make it free. Don't get me wrong, I love free stuff, but 5 whole new campaigns? Not to mention the new weapons, new enemies, new characters and all else that's included? For free? No, it's worth more than that. Even if you don't think it's worth the full price of a new game you can't deny that, and all your quoting of what Valve said before L4D1 came out will not find them saying they'd be giving the new content away for nothing, even back then. Maybe one or two of the campaigns plus the new weapons would make a free update, and would satisfy their original promise of new content for L4D1, but that's less than half of what's in the new game.
Regardless of what people were told was coming in future DLC, they paid for what was on the disc of L4D1.
That's your opinion, and you're perfectly entitled to it, but I know 24,243 other people, and statements directly from Valve themselves (that are linked in this very thread) who disagree with you.
Announcing the intention to release more DLC is not in any way binding for them to actually end up releasing it
Depends what you mean by "binding". Legally binding? Probably not. Not risking p**sing off your customers who had already paid for your game so much that you've now got a 24,254 person group protesting your dishonesty? Well, let's take a look...
anyone who seriously only bought L4D for content that didn't exist yet was making a risky purchase
And there, the crux of people's disappointment. Valve were a much-loved developer. They built up something that's rare, if not unique in the publishing world.
Over a decade of fantastic products and support, they earned trust from most of their customers.
They earned so much trust, that when they released a new game on 4-hours of content and the promise of future content to be delivered, nobody doubted for a second.
Oops, looks like we won't be making that mistake again any time soon.
And you expect people not to be upset about that?
The only way to get it to everyone equally and not split the players up would be to make it free.
One more time... Yes, that was indeed the plan.
That was what Valve told people they were buying. You cannot, in any way shape or form say that people have no right to complain about this, when this was an influencing factor in people giving Valve their money.
Don't get me wrong, I love free stuff, but 5 whole new campaigns? Not to mention the new weapons, new enemies, new characters and all else that's included?
So, it wouldn't be a problem in your eyes if it was just one campaign? One campaign every two or three months over 5 decent-sized patches? Like the people who bought the game told they'd be getting if they bought the game?
"Oh no, they all got tangled up, now we have to charge $50 for them."
Well Valve, it's it's like that, who are we to argue?
Regardless of what people were told was coming in future DLC, they paid for what was on the disc of L4D1.
That's your opinion, and you're perfectly entitled to it
I'm afraid that's not just my opinion. You take a copy of Valve's announcements and promises that I've seen in your posts and on the boycott group's page to any consumer watchdog, business person, lawyer or whoever else you'd consider a reputable source, and ask them "Does this mean I'm definitely entitled to further content later and such content will be free now I've paid Ł40?" and I'd put money on most, if not all of them saying absolutely not.
The only way to get it to everyone equally and not split the players up would be to make it free.
One more time... Yes, that was indeed the plan.
I know that other people in this thread have commented against you without fully reading your posts and links, so it's understandable that you'd assume I hadn't read it either. As it happens, I read that link twice before my prior post, and a third time just now. Nowhere there does he say the updates will be free. Not even a little bit. The closest he came to even vaguely hinting at them being free was saying they "intended to follow a similar downloadable content policy as it has with Team Fortress 2". Although TF2 had free updates, his words here don't even mention that and are not even a shaky argument that Valve promised free updates to L4D. They just mean that any updates that do emerge will bear some similarities to TF2's, not that they will be identical in frequency and pricing.
So, it wouldn't be a problem in your eyes if it was just one campaign? One campaign every two or three months over 5 decent-sized patches? Like the people who bought the game told they'd be getting if they bought the game?
If they released one or two free campaigns overall I'd consider that reasonable and wouldn't feel like I was robbing anyone by downloading them, even though I was never promised those levels for free. If they released 5 full-length free campaigns, even one-by-one and spread over the course of a year, that'd be doubling the size of the game for nothing. I'd consider that to be pretty damn generous, and wonder if Valve were secretly the Jesus of gaming, come to grant us all infinite 1UPs.
Thinking about it, I should be pretty easy to convert to your side of the argument. My whole opposition to this boycott is that no one was ever promised anything for free. L4D2 only splits the community if it replaces completely free DLC with all the same content. As soon as you get paid DLC that adds new weapons and gameplay mechanics the community is split anyway, since those who don't upgrade can't play on maps where the new gameplay is in use without major imbalance and technical issues. The only way to solve that problem is to make all the upgrades completely free so no one misses out - but anyone who expects that much free content even though it has never been promised is being unreasonable, in my eyes.
So, all you have to do to get me on your side is show me a link where they actually do say that future campaigns and so on for L4D1 would be free, and I'll agree that releasing a paid-for upgrade instead, wheter it's DLC or L4D2, is totally wrong on their part and I'll even join your Steam group.
...immoral actions?...a bit OTT don't u think. They have produced a game, stated there will be some DLC ( which there has been- albeit not a lot to be fair) and are now producing a sequel. Ok so the DLC hasn't been what they originally said but its hardly immoral and certainly not worth getting upset about. Don't buy L4D2. I didn't say i agreed with Valve's actions BUT they are here to make money and was simply stating i thought people were acting a little OTT.
Hardly immoral? Acting a little OTT?
Valve took people's money and then didn't deliver what they'd advertised. Lots of people only bought the game because they were told that there would be more good deal more content added, myself included.
Bearing in mind that Valve have told us the sequel went into production almost as soon as the first title had shipped, that means that there were a hell of lot of people buying the first game with Valve's assurances fresh in mind, even when Valve themselves knew that they wouldn't be providing that content.
I can't believe I'm still arguing this point. Taking people's money and then not giving them what you told them they were buying is immoral.
Full stop.
There are even laws against that kind of thing, and it's very lucky for Valve that the line between advertising your game for free in the press and paying for your own adverts is very, very blurred, otherwise I'm sure that some bright-spark somewhere would be talking "class-action lawsuit", or at least contacting their local trading standards.
...and in the face of that, you think that clicking a little "Join this Group" button on their game window in response is "OTT"?
Personally, I think the boycotters are being extremely mature and gracious, under the circumstances.
You are discussing the biggest organized protest of a publisher in gaming history.
People don't do that kind of thing unless there's a very good reason, believe me.
If you don't understand why over 24,000 gamers are p**sed off with Valve, then please at least have the decency not to shoot your mouth off on the subject before doing some research of your own.
listen.. i am certainly not shooting my mouth , i am quite calm actually...i just think some posts on this thread have been very OTT...the petition thing is fine and thats not a problem to me but the OTT response on here is. I didn't buy L4D for possible future DLC, i bought it because its good.I will probably buy L4D2 as well...if i get DLC for free later for it then its a bonus...its a Ł30 computer game, lets keep a bit of perspective.
So, all you have to do to get me on your side is show me a link where they actually do say that future campaigns and so on for L4D1 would be free
If you want to play semantic games and try and spin the contents of that article as "Well, they didn't literally say it, they only strongly hinted at it, made numerous allusions to it, danced around the subject, drew comparisons with the TF2 free updates and made it clear in every possible way, but he didn't use the word "Free" so it doesn't count", then there's not really much point in trying to discuss it with you, as you'll clearly see it whichever way you want to see it.
You may not want to read it that way, but that is what Gabe was saying, and the impression that 25,000 (and rising) other people have.
Oh, he never actually uses the word "free", you say? Doesn't change the message he's putting across, unless he was deliberately misleading the readers of that article... In which case, that makes the entire thing about 300% worse.
Sure, if Gabe Newell turns around now and says "I know what what you thought I said, but I never used the word "free", so there, you have no right to complain", then cool, I'll see it your way.
I don't think that will go any way towards calming the current complaints, though.
listen.. i am certainly not shooting my mouth , i am quite calm actually...i just think some posts on this thread have been very OTT...the petition thing is fine and thats not a problem to me but the OTT response on here is. I didn't buy L4D for possible future DLC, i bought it because its good.I will probably buy L4D2 as well...if i get DLC for free later for it then its a bonus...its a Ł30 computer game, lets keep a bit of perspective.
But previously, you said that the petiton was the problem for you... You're not just backtracking to try and save some face now, are you?
Or is it just that when you have an opinion, that's okay because that's what forums are for, but when anybody else has an opinion, they're OTT and don't have a sense of perspective?
Those words you keep using, over and over again, I don't think they mean what you seem to think they mean...
Especially the words "lets keep a bit of perspective", you seem to be using those as a kind of shield to avoid discussing the subject, as if you're right by default, as everybody who has an opposing opinion has no sense of perspective.
To be honest, you're basically saying "I'm right because you're all idiots", but at least you're giving the impression of being a bit polite about it.
The bottom line is, this story exists because 25,000 gamers have clicked a button to say they're p**sed at Valve because they're not getting their L4D content.
You guys are entitled to your opinion, but you can't write off off the fact that something has gone horribly, horribly wrong somewhere, and that the net result is that we're seeing the biggest single organized protest against the actions of a developer/publisher in the entire history of video games.
What's the consensus? 25,000 people got it a little bit wrong? 25,000 people have suddenly and irrationally decided that they don't want to pay for games anymore? 25,000 people suddenly spontaneously got it into their heads to try and blackmail a games publisher for a bit of a discount, because they felt like it?
If that's not worth some discussion on this website, I can't think of a subject that would be.
If you want to play semantic games and try and spin the contents of that article (...) then there's not really much point in trying to discuss it with you, as you'll clearly see it whichever way you want to see it.
The same could be said both ways. I honestly read that article as containing no promise or implication of free content, you have read the exact same text as a very strong suggestion of free content. We don't know whether they were deliberately deceptive in an attempt to boost sales or if they accidentally gave people the suggestion of free content when all they meant to say was "updates made TF2 awesome and popular so we'll be bring updates to L4D too". Without knowing that, either one of us could just as easily be seeing it however we wanted to see it, and I'll admit you're just as entitled to your understanding of it as I am mine.
you can't write off off the fact that something has gone horribly, horribly wrong somewhere, and that the net result is that we're seeing the biggest single organized protest against the actions of a developer/publisher in the entire history of video games.
Yes, I agree with you there. Something has gone very wrong, and though we don't ultimately see eye to eye, I definitely agree it's unprecedented and needs serious discussing so at least some level of understanding can be reached. If I didn't believe that, I would have skipped over this topic like I do with so many others, but here I still am. I'm glad we've been able to discuss it so thoroughly too, as my view of the people boycotting L4D2 has become much more positive since this afternoon, even though we still disagree on the issue itself.
Regardless of whether they were deceptive or not, Valve are now the ones who need to fix this. They will have to do something extra now to win back as many of those 25,062 gamers as they can, even if they never meant to rip anyone off in the first place, because you're right - this is not just another minor movement where a few people get annoyed, it's huge and it's not showing signs of getting smaller.
Still, the core and as-yet-unanswered issue of Valve's intentions and whether they can still be trusted is going to divide forums like this one until something more solid comes from Valve on how they're going to fix this. While I may still be proven wrong and naive to assume they're victims of an unfortunate misunderstanding, it's also just as possible that they're decent guys who slipped up and deserve the benefit of the doubt while they work out what they can offer those disheartened gamers.
So, all you have to do to get me on your side is show me a link where they actually do say that future campaigns and so on for L4D1 would be free
If you want to play semantic games and try and spin the contents of that article as "Well, they didn't literally say it, they only strongly hinted at it, made numerous allusions to it, danced around the subject, drew comparisons with the TF2 free updates and made it clear in every possible way, but he didn't use the word "Free" so it doesn't count", then there's not really much point in trying to discuss it with you, as you'll clearly see it whichever way you want to see it.
You may not want to read it that way, but that is what Gabe was saying, and the impression that 25,000 (and rising) other people have.
Oh, he never actually uses the word "free", you say? Doesn't change the message he's putting across, unless he was deliberately misleading the readers of that article... In which case, that makes the entire thing about 300% worse.
Sure, if Gabe Newell turns around now and says "I know what what you thought I said, but I never used the word "free", so there, you have no right to complain", then cool, I'll see it your way.
I don't think that will go any way towards calming the current complaints, though.
listen.. i am certainly not shooting my mouth , i am quite calm actually...i just think some posts on this thread have been very OTT...the petition thing is fine and thats not a problem to me but the OTT response on here is. I didn't buy L4D for possible future DLC, i bought it because its good.I will probably buy L4D2 as well...if i get DLC for free later for it then its a bonus...its a Ł30 computer game, lets keep a bit of perspective.
But previously, you said that the petiton was the problem for you... You're not just backtracking to try and save some face now, are you?
Or is it just that when you have an opinion, that's okay because that's what forums are for, but when anybody else has an opinion, they're OTT and don't have a sense of perspective?
Those words you keep using, over and over again, I don't think they mean what you seem to think they mean...
Especially the words "lets keep a bit of perspective", you seem to be using those as a kind of shield to avoid discussing the subject, as if you're right by default, as everybody who has an opposing opinion has no sense of perspective.
To be honest, you're basically saying "I'm right because you're all idiots", but at least you're giving the impression of being a bit polite about it.
The bottom line is, this story exists because 25,000 gamers have clicked a button to say they're p**sed at Valve because they're not getting their L4D content.
You guys are entitled to your opinion, but you can't write off off the fact that something has gone horribly, horribly wrong somewhere, and that the net result is that we're seeing the biggest single organized protest against the actions of a developer/publisher in the entire history of video games.
What's the consensus? 25,000 people got it a little bit wrong? 25,000 people have suddenly and irrationally decided that they don't want to pay for games anymore? 25,000 people suddenly spontaneously got it into their heads to try and blackmail a games publisher for a bit of a discount, because they felt like it?
If that's not worth some discussion on this website, I can't think of a subject that would be.
...i am "keeping a bit of perspective" because its only a computer game and not really worth all this anger and upset, thats all. I certainly did not suggest other people were "idiots". Personnaly i think a petition is perhaps abit OTT but thats my opinion, you disagree and have obviously used it, no problems there, we are all intitled to our opinions. L4D is still a good game and the last update was free. L4D2 will no doubt be good as well. If they give free updates for that then great, if they don't i won't loose any sleep over it.
Still, the core and as-yet-unanswered issue of Valve's intentions and whether they can still be trusted is going to divide forums like this one until something more solid comes from Valve on how they're going to fix this. While I may still be proven wrong and naive to assume they're victims of an unfortunate misunderstanding, it's also just as possible that they're decent guys who slipped up and deserve the benefit of the doubt while they work out what they can offer those disheartened gamers.
Well, there's a viewpoint I can respect, even if I don't necessarily agree entirely with it. I too am hoping that it's all an unfortunate misunderstanding and that we'll see some good news from Valve in the days before the sequel is released, but unfortunately with all they've said and all I've seen so far, you'll have to forgive me for wearing my pessimist hat in the meantime.
Until then, there's certainly no harm in letting Valve know that we think there's a problem by clicking that "petition button", because otherwise they may get the mistaken impression that their loyal fans and customers are in some way entirely satisfied with their recent choices...
i am "keeping a bit of perspective" because its only a computer game and not really worth all this anger and upset
There are those words again. *sigh* Now you're saying that almost 26,000 people are unable to make an informed decision about whether or not they've been ripped off because they're speaking out of irrational anger and upset?
That's still not healthy discussion. Now you're trying to claim that anybody who has a different opinion to you is speaking out because they're they're being overly emotional instead of being rational.
Also, yes it's only a computer game, but we're here to discuss computer games. If you don't think that computer games are worth discussing, I think you may be in the wrong place.
the petition thing is fine and thats not a problem to me
Personnaly i think a petition is perhaps abit OTT
Do you actually have a consistent opinion on the subject, are are you just disagreeing with me out of principle now?
I'm honestly unsure as to whether you think you can actually win an argument with ad hominem accusations of the people you disagree with of being purely irrational, or if you're just trolling.
I'll go with the benefit of the doubt and assume you're the former, but please, take some advice:
If you want to win a debate, you can't do it purely by repeatedly stating groundless insulting assumptions/accusations about the person you're debating with. You actually have to talk about the topic at hand... What you're doing is, to put it politely, rather rude.
Still, the core and as-yet-unanswered issue of Valve's intentions and whether they can still be trusted is going to divide forums like this one until something more solid comes from Valve on how they're going to fix this. While I may still be proven wrong and naive to assume they're victims of an unfortunate misunderstanding, it's also just as possible that they're decent guys who slipped up and deserve the benefit of the doubt while they work out what they can offer those disheartened gamers.
Well, there's a viewpoint I can respect, even if I don't necessarily agree entirely with it. I too am hoping that it's all an unfortunate misunderstanding and that we'll see some good news from Valve in the days before the sequel is released, but unfortunately with all they've said and all I've seen so far, you'll have to forgive me for wearing my pessimist hat in the meantime.
Until then, there's certainly no harm in letting Valve know that we think there's a problem by clicking that "petition button", because otherwise they may get the mistaken impression that their loyal fans and customers are in some way entirely satisfied with their recent choices...
i am "keeping a bit of perspective" because its only a computer game and not really worth all this anger and upset
There are those words again. *sigh* Now you're saying that almost 26,000 people are unable to make an informed decision about whether or not they've been ripped off because they're speaking out of irrational anger and upset?
That's still not healthy discussion. Now you're trying to claim that anybody who has a different opinion to you is speaking out because they're they're being overly emotional instead of being rational.
Also, yes it's only a computer game, but we're here to discuss computer games. If you don't think that computer games are worth discussing, I think you may be in the wrong place.
the petition thing is fine and thats not a problem to me
Personnaly i think a petition is perhaps abit OTT
Do you actually have a consistent opinion on the subject, are are you just disagreeing with me out of principle now?
I'm honestly unsure as to whether you think you can actually win an argument with ad hominem accusations of the people you disagree with of being purely irrational, or if you're just trolling.
I'll go with the benefit of the doubt and assume you're the former, but please, take some advice:
If you want to win a debate, you can't do it purely by repeatedly stating groundless insulting assumptions/accusations about the person you're debating with. You actually have to talk about the topic at hand... What you're doing is, to put it politely, rather rude.
...the "petition thing" is fine by me BUT i can still think its a bit OTT in this case...thats all...i am not trying to "win" anything and i have never been "insulting". I AM talking about the topic which is the reaction to valves announcement of L4D2. I think the reaction is a bit OTT by some...can you not allow me that opinion.???
So you think people clicking a button to say they won't buy a game because they have an extremely legitimate complaint about it is both proportionate and disproportionate at the same time? ...Oooookaay.
You are, of course, welcome to your opinion that anybody who has a different opinion to you only does so because they're "OTT" and "they've lost their perspective", and if you can arrange it so that I receive exactly one English Pound every time you use those words, I won't even point out that it's an extremely OTT argument that could only be made by somebody who's truly lost their sense of perspective on the topic at hand...
So you think people clicking a button to say they won't buy a game because they have an extremely legitimate complaint about it is both proportionate and disproportionate at the same time? ...Oooookaay.
You are, of course, welcome to your opinion that anybody who has a different opinion to you only does so because they're "OTT" and "they've lost their perspective", and if you can arrange it so that I receive exactly one English Pound every time you use those words, I won't even point out that it's an extremely OTT argument that could only be made by somebody who's truly lost their sense of perspective on the topic at hand...
no no no..i didn't say that people with a different opinion were "OTT", i said "some" people had over reacted in the thread on the forum. Anyway, valve's recent announcement about still supporting L4D should calm some people down. Wether it has anything to do with the petition or not is a different matter.
I bought L4D a couple of days after its release, didn't enjoy though, and gave it to my brother for a Christmas present. He hasn't played it much... it really ain't that good kids.
The thing that sucks about being a gamer is you have to wait and see, with all things. If they release a playable demo that satisfies the L4D community that L4D2 content is worth the purchase... then they should get it. If gamers play it and decide they'd be paying to get raped without the chance of a shower afterwards...they can leave it alone and boycott the culprit title.
In the meantime... WAIT & FRACKING SEE!
S'your money now, and it'll still be yours when it comes to parting with it. S'up to you whether you do or not. I don't see how you can justify a boycott when the thing you're boycotting doesn't exist yet.
damn boycotters quit your bitching. Valve said they will release DLC even when l4d2 comes out. AND who knows, they said they will include the old maps in l4d2 meaning they could add the FREE DLC into that WITH the paid sequel. Just wait for november damnit.
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You just can't stop can you?!.jpg){kind=small}
The fact that they can turn around and create this "sequel", with it's "vast amounts of content" in less than 12 months is not a good sign.
